Lithium Battery Reports & Tests' 9/08

[scoot]

Now that we've heard about the new RED Headways, I was wondering if anyone knows when the RED BMIs might be coming out and what the physical dimensions might be? I looked for it in this thread and maybe I missed it.

I sure am looking forward to seeing the outcome of more high C discharge tests here.

edit: well at least the high C battery discharge type :lol:

 

[BMI]

Now that we've heard about the new RED Headways, I was wondering if anyone knows when the RED BMIs might be coming out and what the physical dimensions might be? I looked for it in this thread and maybe I missed it.

I sure am looking forward to seeing the outcome of more high C discharge tests here.

edit: well at least the high C battery discharge type :lol:

They are the same size as the grey cells. The current cells are denoted as 40138F1 cells while I believe the new red BMI cells will be called 40138F3 cells.
View attachment Cell Outline.doc
There is considerable cell testing going on and this takes time. Our testing is very thorough and we want to be sure any performance claims we make are true.

 

[Jeff]

Now that we've heard about the new RED Headways, I was wondering if anyone knows when the RED BMIs might be coming out and what the physical dimensions might be?

45 days have elapsed since the last thread post...

I'd like to be one of the first to give the new BMI cells a good flogging in an 8C burst discharge with 1/2C continuous.

Can you quote me for 575 pieces with delivery to the western US zip 85210?

PM or Post here.

Thanks, Jeff

 

[arlberg]

Dear Mr. Pauza! Dear Mr. Harmon!

Looking for a battery for my own simple project I have been following this thread and others for about a year now. It became apparent about 7 months ago that LiFePo chemistry in general and PSI/BMI/LifeBatt batteries in particular will be most suitable. I did not buy any of them yet.
The on going controversy creates more and more confusion on my end at least. If you use forums like this one to inform about / promote your product don't you have to account for skeptical/critical even false comments and present undisputable information? Although I buy into many of the various points you make your hard selling attitude is not at all serving your credibility. I understand that the battery business is a very fragile thing in these pioneering days. Nevertheless I would really appreciate if you could finally provide clarity here.
Pls excuse if these questions have been asked before. I could not find conclusive answers.

Are the current cells from LifeBatt and BMI identical production from the same manufacturer?
It seems there is a business partnership between Mr. Harmon and Mr. Pauza. Can you specify?
Do you both own or share the same source/factory/staff for the production of the cells?
Which parts in your product ranges vary from each other? Of what sort is the competition?

Thanks for your attention.
A

 

[BMI]

Dear Mr. Pauza! Dear Mr. Harmon!

Looking for a battery for my own simple project I have been following this thread and others for about a year now. It became apparent about 7 months ago that LiFePo chemistry in general and PSI/BMI/LifeBatt batteries in particular will be most suitable. I did not buy any of them yet.
The on going controversy creates more and more confusion on my end at least. If you use forums like this one to inform about / promote your product don't you have to account for skeptical/critical even false comments and present undisputable information? Although I buy into many of the various points you make your hard selling attitude is not at all serving your credibility. I understand that the battery business is a very fragile thing in these pioneering days. Nevertheless I would really appreciate if you could finally provide clarity here.
Pls excuse if these questions have been asked before. I could not find conclusive answers.

Are the current cells from LifeBatt and BMI identical production from the same manufacturer?
It seems there is a business partnership between Mr. Harmon and Mr. Pauza. Can you specify?
Do you both own or share the same source/factory/staff for the production of the cells?
Which parts in your product ranges vary from each other? Of what sort is the competition?

Thanks for your attention.
A

I am sorry you feel confused. So what comments specifically do you believe as you put it are "skeptical/critical or false?"
We have now stopped manufacturing the 40138F1 cell and have four new cells which are used in the new XPS battery packs which have recently replaced the older HPS packs (typical packs pictured below).

Rather than explain this all in great detail again here (regarding the new and improved cells used in the packs) you can read about it yourself here- http://lithbattoz.com.au/index.php?page=battery-cells

No there is no business partnership or other association between myself and Don Harmon. We run entirely separate businesses and have nothing to do with each other.
The batteries are manufacturerd in the same new factory in Taiwan.
I can't answer on behalf of Mr Harmon since I have no idea which of the products he decides to sell. You would need to ask him yourself.
View attachment XPS sample packs.JPG
I hope that answers your questions satisfactorily.

Regards,
Armin Pauza
BMI-LiFeTech Australia

 

[fechter]

No there is no business partnership or other association between myself and Don Harmon. We run entirely separate businesses and have nothing to do with each other.

:wink:

 

[miro13car]

arlberg,
I have been using grey LifeBatt/BMI cells /they are identical except labels/on my bike for close to 3000km now.
I bought HPS battery built with 12 grey cells and 3 VMS boards and rebuilt it into different enclosure.
I must says cells perform well on my 500W restricted TidalForce bike.
I regularly draw 51-52A in bursts and 20A continous is not problem for them.
It is second winter now for them here in Canada and I ride almost every day up to minus 15C temperature.
Today on frosty night with wind chill of -15C they performed well and bike felt more sluggish but not much comparing with summer.Cells in my rebuilt pack are mounted vertically and I inspected pack several times, last time weeks ago and cells hold very well, they are tough.
In the summer cells deliver solid 10Ah in winter less.
I bought from Armin VMS boards/I distroyed 2 when I was rebuilding my factory pack/
and have very good impression of him, always respectful and answers e-mail fast.
Miroslaw

 

[gilnet]

welcome arlberg

 

[AndyH]

No there is no business partnership or other association between myself and Don Harmon. We run entirely separate businesses and have nothing to do with each other.

29 Oct 09
LINK
"ANAHEIM, Calif. -- The Panjit Group, a broad-based manufacturer of leading-edge technologies headquartered in Taiwan, today announced the acquisition of LiFeTech, (Lifebatt Production Inc. Taiwan) a supplier of specialty lithium ion rechargeable battery modules which use iron phosphate (LiFePO4) as a cathode material. "

 

[AndyH]

...I have been using grey LifeBatt/BMI cells /they are identical except labels/on my bike for close to 3000km now.

Miro - the grey cells you use were made by PSI. Current cells are not - they appear to be made by Headway. While performance and quality appear to have improved over Headway's early cells, it might be too early to guestimate how these new cells will perform long-term.

 

[BMI]

We have decided to change the color of our new XPS 15Ah cell from red to this new silver color.
(Long story behind the new cells, I don't have time to type out several pages of explanation now).
View attachment LiFeTech new XPS high energy 15Ah cell.JPG
Our 38123 25C high power cell will remain gold in color and has a dicharge curve at high C rates to rival the "flatness" of an A123 cell but without the hassle of having to spot weld lots of small cells together.
View attachment LiFeTech 25C high power LiFePO4 cell.JPG
Both these new cells provide extrordinary performance due to two new blends/formulations of LiFePO4 powder supplied by Phostech (hence the Phostech logo on the cells).

There is some more info on the BMI-LiFeTech website here- http://lithbattoz.com.au/index.php?page=battery-cells
The latest information will be added to the BMI-LiFeTech website over the coming weeks.

 

[Ypedal]

Them's some sexy cells ! 8)

 

[BMI]

Them's some sexy cells ! 8)

Maybe Ypedal is right and sex "cells"...ha..ha..ha :lol: :lol: :lol:
(I know...very bad joke)

 

[wookey]

Having just waded through this fascinating thread, I wonder if there is a wiki page somewhere with a summary of the various suppliers, manufacturers and models of cells?

So far as I can tell from reading all this we have four manfacturers of cyclindrical LiFePO cells: A123, PSI (phoenix Silicon International), Headway, LifeTech. Lifetech has two suppliers, Don Harmon in the US *('Lifetech') and Armin in Australia (BMI-Lifetech). Headway are supplied by Kennedy in the US. PSI are supplied by one AndyH (of Rechanrgeable Lithium technology). A123 are not available to the public directly. There may well be other suppliers in other countries. There has been one model of PSI cells, and at least 2 models of both Headway and Lifetech cells. Don't know about A123.

Anything wrong with that lot? A page with the above, expanded to include pics, colours, markings, dates, links and maybe even specs would be a very fine thing. Does it exist?

One could extend such a page to also cover the rectangular cells too (Thunder Sky, Foxx (and they a different manufacturer?), Ping (are they square or round inside all that tape?), Tenergy).

WIthout such a thing, I guess I'll just read the rest of this fine forum and see if I can work it out...

 

[patrickza]

Those are good looking cells, maybe I should make a clear battery box next time! While I'm not in the market for new cells just yet, I am interested in the following:
-Price (obviously)
-Capacity
-Size (they say 38123, though I imagine they're the same size as the headways 38120 + endcaps, (possibly the same cells???), aside from the colour the external casing looks identical)
-Number of cycles possible

It is a competitive industry at the moment. A123 seems to win in terms of quality, headway in terms of price, and everyone else slots in between those two.

 

[RoughRider]

soooo...what is the price of the new 15Ah BMI cell??

 

[BMI]

There is no BMI 15Ah cell. All cells and packs are now made under the new LiFeTech label since the new high end packs feature CAN bus.
Prices vary depending on quantity since we sell to professional OEM's/manufacturers of electric vehicles. Typical examples as shown below-
View attachment LiFeTech EV 1.jpg
View attachment LiFeTech EV 2.jpg

 

[RoughRider]

BMI lest us know some prices...

what would i have to pay, if i would order 100x bare 15Ah cell from you?

and

what costs one of your "ready-to-go"-package...with e.g. 72V and 30Ah?

 

[arlberg]

Hi Armin!
Which packs exactely feature CAN Bus now? It was RS232 earlier, right?

 

[RoughRider]

@BMI

why are you makeing such a secret out of the prices for the cells??????

 

[BMI]

Hi Armin!
Which packs exactely feature CAN Bus now? It was RS232 earlier, right?

The new high voltage packs which have an LCD UITS (User Interface Touch Screen) feature CAN bus monitoring of all battery parameters. The first photo on my website (on the "about us" page) is of the new 350V 15Ah pack with CAN and UITS.
The battery log/history can also be saved on a SD memory card.

 

[gilnet]

roughrider,it appears you are not worthy.

 

[RoughRider]

yes, it looks like that...

 

[BMI]

Hi Guys,
Sorry for the delay while I have been away.
Please see below the attached specification and discharge curves of the LiFeTech 40152 15Ah cell as well as discharge curves for the 38123 and soon to be introduced 40152 high power cells.

Of course the doubters will say these are just re-labelled Headway cells. To which I say, perform the same discharge tests up to 20C continous with the same capacity Headway cell, compare the curves between the two cells, and lets see how similar they are.
As you can see the X1P cells can easily provide 20C continuos discharge since these are a much higher quality cell which are manufactured using high grade LiFePO4 Phostech powder.
A great deal more quality control and testing of these cells is undertaken in the factory before they are classed as A-grade and are allowed to be used in the assembly of the XPS battery packs.
View attachment LiFeTech X2E Cell Specification.pdf
View attachment X-1P 8AH 5C,10C,15C,20C Discharge.pdf

 

[CamLight]

Impressive voltage curves for the X-1P!
But with an 63C to 83C surface temp, what's the cycle life expectancy at those 10C-20C discharges? I'd be worried about running it above 5C for longer than a few seconds.

I have a pretty high-current application in mind and have been patiently waiting for a replacement for the A123 M1's we've been forced to use. Always on the lookout for other cells.