Long time listener, first time builder

[comand]

A couple of months ago, I bought my wife a Raleigh Detour iE to allow her to commute to work
without having to worry about parking. So far, it's been working great -- so great that I now want
to escape the terrible traffic of my commute as well. However, I would prefer to build a kit into
a bike that I want to ride, rather than spending $$$ on a pre-built bike.

Desired max speed on level ground. mph or kph: 30mph -- enough to keep up with traffic.
Desired max range at what cruising speed. mph or kph: 20mi with 25-30mph cruising speed.
Preferred bike wheel size, or wheel size of bike you want to convert: 26"
Brake type of motor wheel. Disc or not: Disc
Rider weight: 195lbs
Terrain: Mostly flat, some hills with 10-12% grade.
Budget: $1500

My commute is 10mi each way, downhill on the way out, uphill on the way back,
mostly flat in the middle (I'd say 30% descending/climbing, 70% flat). All
pavement, all the way. I don't mind pedaling, I just want to ride to and from
work in normal clothes and not sweat my ass off.

I think with the sort of climbing I'll be doing on my commute that a geared
hub motor in a 26" wheel would provide sufficient torque for climbing (without
resorting to a mid drive). I don't want any resistance when coasting downhill
and want to be able to ride at slow speeds with my kids on the weekend with no
assist, so am steering away from direct drive hubs.

I'm not having much luck in finding a decent mountain bike (new or used) with
the right frame size for me (L/20") that has decent components (hydraulic
brakes for instance) and 26" wheels. I was thinking about buying a bike with
27.5/650b disc wheels and just replacing the rear with a 26" hub wheel
(76'er), transferring the brake disc to the hub wheel.

I am looking at most MTB hardtail bikes, like the Specialized Pitch 650b, or a
KHS SixFifty 200. Something in the ~$400-500 range, although I would love to
spend less to get something used (CL in my area hasn't been fruitful lately for
anything except the $2000+ range).

I am strongly considering the kit from gocarlite, which is advertised as
48V/1300W peak, with the PAS add-on ($620).

http://gocarlite.com/product/high-end-geared-motor-kit/

I would pair this kit with a 48V/20ah battery from lunacycle ($460):

http://lunacycle.com/batteries/packs/48v-samsung-18650-20ah-ebike-battery/

If anyone can recommend a better kit for my purposes, or a better battery, or
a better bike setup, please do!

 

[bowlofsalad]

Have you checked out em3ev.com?

Mac hub motors are pretty popular geared hub motors, certainly worth considering. I'd also go with their custom lacing, electric bicycles seem to have some of spoke/rim issues, I am sure you care for dependability, a solid wheel build is an important detail to consider. I couldn't tell you what the story is with gocarlite and their wheel build, but you might ask them what gauge their spokes are as well as who builds these wheels. Be sure to check the wheels, whichever you get, for tension and true on a fairly routine basis, 30mph is fast in the world of bicycles.

http://em3ev.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=209 You might also consider this frame, suspension is good, wide tires and suspension might be essential at higher speeds.

I'd also recommend any newbie to get a cycle analyst. A lot of useful information comes with that display, among other things. Be sure your pack has external balance leads for manually checking the balance of your pack once in a while or whenever needed.

http://www.ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.html This tool might give you some ideas on some ranges you might expect to get, it's pretty hard to say though if you have enough capacity, there are a lot of variables in what you mention, especially the hills.

 

[DAND214]

Luna has a 8T MAC and throttle and controller. I don't know if he is lacing wheels yet but he has great product and fast shipping.
You would get the same setup EM3ev with much less shipping cost.

Dan

 

[motomech]

You are going to have to find a used quality mountain bike to get to that kind of speed with your budget.
You will need to spend at least half again on componets to get a 30 mph cruise, as opposed to a more reasonable 25 mph.
30 mph avg. requires big batt, big motor, HD wiring, special geaRing(if you want to pedal), wider rims, hd tires, etc.

 

[comand]

You are going to have to find a used quality mountain bike to get to that kind of speed with your budget.
You will need to spend at least half again on componets to get a 30 mph cruise, as opposed to a more reasonable 25 mph.
30 mph avg. requires big batt, big motor, HD wiring, special geaRing(if you want to pedal), wider rims, hd tires, etc.

Alright, maybe I was overly ambitious with the cruise speed -- I don't want a hotrod (well, I do, but I don't really want to spend like
that right now), I just want to get to work and home quickly and efficiently. If I were to adjust my details to 20-25mph would I be
in the ballpark with the components I outlined above?

As for suggestions for EM3Ev, that site is awesome, but I'm a bit put off by the shipping costs and potential need for overseas support
(e.g. sending things back for repair/replacement). I was looking locally. Gocarlite is really really local -- it's within driving distance
for picking up/returning parts. Lunacycle is in-state, so very reasonable for shipping. Maybe I'm being overly cautious about EM3Ev and
therefore I'm spending a lot more on the local kit than I otherwise would have to.

I'm really curious whether anyone else has a setup with a 26" rear wheel combined with a different size up front (650b or 29). I see
a lot of posts in MTB forums about the benefits of 96ers/76ers, although it seems primarily to be trail handling. I wonder if I would
be hurting efficiency in some way by running a setup like this for commuting on pavement.

 

[wesnewell]

Any 48V 1000W dd kit for $200 with free shipping from a US company will get you a 30 mph top speed and you can run it all day long until you deplete the battery at that speed. Forget pedaling above 20 mph unless you want to do a serious gearing mod which imo is more trouble than it's worth. A dd motor will be much more reliable than one of those little geared motors. Get a cheap 26" bike with steel dropouts and V brakes. Enable regen braking on the kit you get to improve braking and save brake pads.
Take your pick from these.
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_sacat=0&_nkw=48v1000w%20rear&LH_PrefLoc=1&rt=nc&LH_FS=1
Personally I don't like flashlight batteries for ebikes, but the one you selected will work fine with any of the controllers that come with the 48V kits.

 

[leo99]

Paul from em3ev has great customer service and he told me he is doing a upgrade in his basic Mac motors by the end of the year supposed to have major upgrade in the cooling system. I am currently waiting for it to buy it

 

[2old]

I've only read a couple of comments about gocarlite, but all were very positive, so good choice IMO for a geared motor. Also, Eric at Luna Cycle is very easy to work with from my experience. One thing is to consider the connectors that are supplied with Luna's battery and have Doug put them on your controller. A 26" rear wheel is only about one inch smaller than a "27.5" and will decrease ground clearance slightly, but shouldn't impair road riding. Of course you'll have difficulty finding hydraulic discs on a low end bike. Maybe try to locate an older steel used bike with disc mounts and purchase a set of Shimano XT hydraulic discs from Chain Reaction Cycles (UK) for about $150, no tax, free shipping (I've gotten several orders from them all within a week or so).

 

[oobagooba]

If I were to adjust my details to 20-25mph would I be
in the ballpark with the components I outlined above?

As for suggestions for EM3Ev, that site is awesome, but I'm a bit put off by the shipping costs and potential need for overseas support
(e.g. sending things back for repair/replacement). I was looking locally. Gocarlite is really really local -- it's within driving distance
for picking up/returning parts. Lunacycle is in-state, so very reasonable for shipping. Maybe I'm being overly cautious about EM3Ev and
therefore I'm spending a lot more on the local kit than I otherwise would have to.

I'm really curious whether anyone else has a setup with a 26" rear wheel combined with a different size up front (650b or 29). I see
a lot of posts in MTB forums about the benefits of 96ers/76ers, although it seems primarily to be trail handling. I wonder if I would
be hurting efficiency in some way by running a setup like this for commuting on pavement.

You are juggling a lot of issues. Maybe find a bike you like first, then see your options to convert.

As for wheel size "27.5" is the new "29er" for marketing hype. 26" wheels are fine for ebikes and cheaper. Ebikes ride and handle different so all the new hype may not matter once you mount a 15lb kit + battery.

I have the gocarlite kit you linked to. It is 8-speed cassette. My bike is steel frame 7-speed so needed to redish the wheel and add a cassette spacer to keep my bike gearing.

with any rear hub motor you will need a spoke wrench and cassette or freewheel tool eventually.

The gcl kit has a mxus motor & 25a controller. Airc the winding was around 350. 250# bike+rider i get around 25mph with 13s4p. The mxus runs fine without halls which is good in case they crap out.

i have to pedal on longer/steeper hills but not bad. If you're lightweight or mostly ride flats could get by with an ebay kit for 1/2 the price. geared vs dd

I went with gcl b/c last year they were cheaper than em3. Now em3 costs about the same with shipping. I wanted US shipping for warranty but that hasn't happened. Ask for the twist throttle he may charge you more tho. Spokes are 12g.

Gcl battery is rear rack. He won't tell you the cell type. Luna had decent battery prices at first but are going up. But they tell you what you are getting and they have more options.

I went with a bmsb panasonic, works fine. Your frame will decide what pack. Gcl kit has 30a anderson at the battery, not the best but ok at 48v.

Maybe you could go to gcl and try out his bikes, prices look decent on conversions last i looked.

There is also "california ebikes" another doug i believe somewhere in the area.

 

[comand]

Thanks to everyone above for the advice and guidance -- I'm deep in the research hole on this one, but maybe nearing some conclusions.

 

[Jonathan in Hiram]

I have an Ebikeling 26" rear 1000W DD kit I got from Ebay that will do what you want with the right battery, $189.99 delivered, I've been running it for over a year with zero problems

http://www.ebay.com/itm/48V-1000W-2...lectric-Bicycle-Kit-ebike-22Amp-/272022303239

I have no issues on any of my systems including the Ebikeling kit keeping to a low "kids-on-bikes" speed when I ride with my grandkids. When riding as for a commute though a decent electric drive changes virtually everything about bike riding, with a DD I find it's best to save your energy for the climbs and either faux pedal or just loaf completely on the flats, going downhill you'll fly while using very little battery so I wouldn't worry much about that.

If I were you starting from scratch I'd go with a cheap DD kit like the one I linked and spend the money getting the right battery and bike, for your purposes with your range and speed requirements battery is going to be the biggest single cost by a substantial margin, particularly if you oversize it some in order to make it last longer. If you put $800 of your budget in battery/charger and $200 in the motor that will leave $500 for the bike which with a little patience should net you a fairly nice unit, you can do the split any way you want though.

If you were to upgrade the controller to a Ebikes.ca unit you could get variable regen which will really help in the brakes department. Go with the 48V 35A unit and you'll get better hill climbing too (battery allowing). The Ebikeling controller is fine but only 22A and lacks regen, or at least mine does.

You can also buy just the motor/wheel combo for $159.99 delivered. Depending on the bike you get it may be difficult/impossible to fit the brake levers from a kit (particularly with hydraulic discs) and if you are going to upgrade the controller anyway why bother buying the other stuff?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/eBike-Brush...W-500W-1000W-26-700c-29er-Wheel-/271970433275

 

[dogman dan]

20 miles at 25-30 mph will take a big battery, so that is your starting point, a 48v 20 ah battery. Figure on 25 mph cruise minimum, from the "48v 1000w" kits. some will go 30 mph, others 27, depending on the motor wind.

If you can charge at work, then you could make the battery smaller, but at least a 13-15 ah would be best, rather than a 10 ah. You'll like long range on the weekends for pure pleasure rides.

It won't have to be a geared motor for your hills, not with 48v. So look at both geared and dd motors, especially if you need to go with a less expensive kit. In general, a large 48v capable gear motor is more expensive than a DD.

 

[comand]

Okay, I finally decided on a bike. I bought a Motobecane 550HT (26er hardtail w/hydraulic disc) from bikesdirect
this week ($399 out the door). Before I came back and checked the thread this evening, on advice from further up
in the thread, I was strongly considering a kit from EM3ev (UPGRADE EM3EV VERS. MAC , 500/1000W PICK'N'MIX KIT),
with a 9fet/30A controller, 10T motor, 26" Alex DM24 disc, thumb throttle, and HWBS sensor, which is $395.
I have no idea how much it would cost to ship. However, I'll look at the ebikeling kits as well. I had figured
that DD was not as good of an option when climbing 10-12% grade, although I suppose my wife is doing okay climbing
a similar grade on her commute with her Currie DD 500W/48V system...

As far as batteries go, the one I linked above is 48V/20Ah. I'm not sure what to do with the suggestion from
wesnewell above about the Luna pack being "flashlight" batteries (that particular pack is Samsung 18650 13s8p 960Wh).
There is *so* much information out there about batteries, I'm having a hard time digesting it all and figuring
out what makes a "good" pack different than an "excellent" one, in a particular chemistry. EM3ev has triangle packs
too, but I'm less certain about shipping a battery from China than I am about shipping a motor or kit.

 

[e-beach]

Okay, I finally decided on a bike. I bought a Motobecane 550HT ..

.

Looks like that bike has a good triangle to put the battery pack into. I always recommend putting the battery pack in the triangle for proper weight balance.

....I had figured that DD was not as good of an option when climbing 10-12% grade,....

It's not the motor as much as the voltage, battery C-rating and gauge of phase wiring. With my yescomusa DD 36v motor powered by Headway LiFePO4 cells, I climb 10-12% hills around here every day. The hills are not longer then .10 miles. I don't need to pedal much to get me up them. The 16 gauge phase wires warm up a bit and that is what I think about. A higher C-rated battery-chemistry with thicker gauge wires then it would be less taxing on my wiring harness.

A 48v or higher voltage system would make it easier to get up my hills.

As far as resistance going down hills, that is negligible with a DD motor. It saves a bit on breaking, and if you have your setup right it will give you a bit of a regen charge as well.

As far as batteries go, the one I linked above is 48V/20Ah. I'm not sure what to do with the suggestion from
wesnewell above about the Luna pack being "flashlight" batteries (that particular pack is Samsung 18650 13s8p 960Wh).

wesnewell runs RC lipo which has high energy output. It makes most other chemistries look very tame by comparison.
On the other hand, if handled improperly RC Lipo can burn your house down.....and I am not joking about that. wesnewell knows how to handle his Lipo batteries. You can too if you take the time to learn about how to do it. They are cost effective, small, light weight, and configurable but can self-immolate if improperly handled.

.......I'm less certain about shipping a battery from China than I am about shipping a motor or kit.

I bought my Headway LiFePO4 cells from a USA company and ended up with somewhat rotten customer service. They made errors in the order, but wanted me to pay for return shipping and maybe, just maybe they would refund my shipping and perhaps, if they felt like it, would fix the product.

The moral is that even if you purchase from a USA company their is no guarantees. Stick with the companies that have a good reputation around here and you should be OK.

IMO a 48v (or grater) 1000w DD motor with a 15ah battery will do what you want. But like Dogman said, charge at work. Get an inexpensive secondary charger and leave at work. If you do that you will always have the range you need on a daily basis.

 

[Jonathan in Hiram]

Your biggest problem with that bike is going to be wiring your controller brake cutoff wire to the disc brakes, other than that it looks fine. I'd probably put a thudbuster seat post on it though and a more sit down type saddle and you'll more than likely end up with different bars to let you sit up a bit more.

The tires might be noisy and rough on pavement at speed, I found a big improvement in ride and handling going from semi knobby mountain bike style tires to Schwalbe Big Apples, the BA's also roll easier for a bit more speed and range. There are other good choices for tires out there but those are the ones I have personal experience with. There are only two tiny rubber contact patches between you and a crash, rubber is cheaper than skin so it makes sense to have the best rubber possible on your bike.

 

[Jonathan in Hiram]

I finally got a chance to look at the Lunacycle packs, there are a few options.

These both have about the same total energy, the first one you should be able to ride full throttle or close to it for your whole trip.

http://lunacycle.com/batteries/48v-samsung-inr18650-30q-21ah-high-power/

If you can exercise some restraint and not ride it full throttle the whole time this one would do, it's going to be faster and therefore shorter range than the other pack unless you consciously throttle back.

http://lunacycle.com/batteries/52v-samsung-inr18650-25r-20ah-high-power/

A lot of it depends on how much restraint you can exercise, it's kind of intoxicating to have that near-silent rush of power and it's easy to overheat the lesser packs even if they have sufficient amp hours on paper for your ride. Sedate part throttle take off from stops, pedal hard up hills that aren't too long, keep to 21-22 mph and you can probably get by with the lesser pack, if you hammer it hard all the way on a 20 mile daily commute you will be stressing the less capable cells and they won't last as long.

Everything is a balancing act with ebikes, they run so close to the bone power wise that optimizing the drive train is more important than it would be if there was excess power to waste. The battery is the biggest single cost in the drivetrain, getting it right makes the biggest difference in that portion of the ebike experience.

Personally I'd go with the second, faster, battery because it will give you a bit more climbing power too on the same controller.

 

[comand]

Your biggest problem with that bike is going to be wiring your controller brake cutoff wire to the disc brakes, other than that it looks fine. I'd probably put a thudbuster seat post on it though and a more sit down type saddle and you'll more than likely end up with different bars to let you sit up a bit more.

I see that lunacycle has an e-brake cutoff that "Can be retrofitted to work with cable or hydraulic braking systems."

http://lunacycle.com/motors/hub-motor-accessories/ebrake-cut-off-switch/

That's pretty much all the information the site has to offer though, so it's not clear how I would go about retrofitting this
switch for hydraulics (more research required, any pointers appreciated). I could also go with a Tectro Dorado e-brake:

http://www.ebikessf.com/node/374

At a cost of only 10x the luna cutoff switch :|

I'm definitely swapping out tires for Schwalbe Marathon Plus or Big Apple, based on recommendations I've read so far, and was
considering a Thud-buster even before I started looking into building an ebike . I'm sure that I'll quickly swap out other parts,
like bars and saddle, once I get going with regular commuting.

 

[comand]

I finally got a chance to look at the Lunacycle packs, there are a few options.

This is all great info -- thanks for having a look at this. I hadn't considered running 52V. It seems like the 52V pack you
recommended in the end would be the longest-life option, while providing plenty of range. The price is a squeeze for my overall
budget target, but it seems like a good investment. I'd go with the triangle version of this battery, as it's reasonably large
and that one fits into the (free) triangle bag provided.

On that note, what do people typically do with frame pack mounted batteries when going into a store, or running
some other errand that requires the bike to be locked up on the street for some period of time. I have a closed campus at work,
so I'm not worried about battery theft there, but more about leaving the battery outside in the summer heat. I would probably
get some kind of small battery bag, and carry that with me each day, so I can carry everything to my office without dropping
the battery .

On the motor front, now that yescomusa has been mentioned on this thread, I can't unsee it in forum signatures. I'm also looking
at the Magic Pie V5, which I can also get from Lunacycle for $375. I'm guessing the primary drawback to this motor is that the
controller is built in, which also seems like a positive, as far as wire clutter is concerned. Any other DD motor kits to
seriously consider?

 

[comand]

You can also buy just the motor/wheel combo for $159.99 delivered. Depending on the bike you get it may be difficult/impossible to fit the brake levers from a kit (particularly with hydraulic discs) and if you are going to upgrade the controller anyway why bother buying the other stuff?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/eBike-Brush...W-500W-1000W-26-700c-29er-Wheel-/271970433275

I like the wheel-only option here, but I can't tell from the ebay listing whether this wheel has a mount for disc brake rotors.

 

[Jonathan in Hiram]

You'll have to ask about the disc brake mount, just send them an ebay message...

Plugging and unplugging a high power battery is an entire subject on its own, unplugging not so much but plugging one up can cause quite a spark with a high power system and eventually borks the contacts if it's not handled correctly.

I haven't had to deal with the hydraulic disc issue myself, it might be best to start a thread on that or do a search of the site.

 

[comand]

Unfortunately, after sending an ebay message at the start of the week, and an email mid-week, I haven't heard
a thing from ebikeling.com. When I look at the installation instructions for the 48V 1000W 26" kit on their site,
there is a section for installing a disc rotor, so I assume that some of the wheels are disc brake compatible,
if I correctly assume that the manual matches up with the hub. I'm a bit worried about customer service in
general if I can't even get a response for such an easy question... I'll carry on trying next week to see if I can
get a response one way or the other.

 

[docw009]

Unfortunately, after sending an ebay message at the start of the week, and an email mid-week, I haven't heard
a thing from ebikeling.com.

He never answered my ebay email either, but they do list a phone on their website at ebikeling.com. You could call the number, but the pictures of his kits suggest the DD hubs have disk brake mounts.

I bought ebikeling's 500W 36v $189 rear geared hub kit last august. It has been trouble free. Controller is rated at 22A and pulls 20A continuous on acceleration. Motor seems limited to about 20 mph with a 26" wheel and 36 volt battery. Very satisfied with it. I use it with a bottle battery, and that has its own power switch, which I assume is low voltage/current. The battery wires are soldered to my controller, so it may surge, but there aren't any sparks.

I bought a second rear hub kit kit last week. Both arrived two days after my orders, but his warehouse is only 23 miles away from me. I could ride there. Main reason I picked this vendor. Good price. Local. Free shipping.

 

[comand]

On another thread, I saw the sweet elevation chart that MapMyRide can generate. Here's my commute home from work, 5.51mi total:



A couple of good climbs in there - Mapmyride rates it a 3.

My bike arrived in perfect condition; it's built and on it's way to my LBS for a checkup this afternoon.

I still haven't figured out what kit to buy -- I'm thinking that buying a kit from ebikeling will mean that
I keep the wheel and everything else goes into the spare parts bin, in favor of a higher amperage (30-35A)
controller with an on/off switch and CA plug, some sort of e-brake adapter that works with my hydraulic brakes,
and a CA2/CA3-DP instead of the LED/LCD display.

I like the controllers offered by EM3ev (9fet 30A IRFB3077) and ebikes.ca (C3635-NC 35A). Both controllers have
on/off switches, presumably that would eliminate sparking when connecting/disconnecting the battery. They also
have CA plugs. The controllers offered in the ebikeling kit have neither (or if they do, it's not listed in
the specs on the ebay page).

I could just go ahead and buy the wheel from ebikeling, then piece everything else together. Or, I could order
everything, including the wheel but without the battery, from either EM3ev (Mac 8T/10T) or ebikes.ca
(Crystalite M3540).

Ebikes.ca is $760 shipped -- expensive kit, cheaper shipping. Ordering just the controller,
throttle, torque arm and CA from ebikes.ca still clocks in at nearly $400, so adding on a ~$150 wheel from
ebay brings the total to ~$550, but I suspect the motor/wheel quality is likely better from ebikes.ca, and
that might be worth the extra ~$200.

EM3ev is $620 shipped -- slightly less expensive kit (plus spare parts), expensive shipping (~$100 for SAL).
Ordering just the controller, torque arm and CA from EM3ev is probably not the best option, as the lesser the
cost of the items shipped, the more I pay proportionally in shipping.

So it seems like the two options are (a) cheap ebay DD wheel plus better components shipped from Canada, or
(b) a geared drive package deal from EM3ev. Or, (c)...

 

[motomech]

There is a third option that many of us use. Buy from the big vendors in China(or Hong Kong);
https://bmsbattery.com
or

http://www.elifebike.com/peng/pic.asp

 

[comand]

I finally decided on a setup and built my bike: photos and writeup here. Thanks
to everyone on this thread that guided my early investigation.