New Kelly pseudo FOC controller series

[SplinterOz]

I have one of the small KLS6025S and a larger KLS7250D.
I was able to bench test both of them with the Colossus motor, consider it a torture test.

KLS6025S test
KLS7250D test

After auto setup the motor just worked simple wiring simple setup.
HOWEVER with 28 motor pole (Kelly setting) it seems to be only able to spin to 2200 RPM.

Also I have a question have you guys measured the 12v output from the controller? It seems that both of mine only put out about 10volts, not enough to drive the relay/contactor.

 

[izeman]

The instructions I got was to set the "Identification Angle" to 170 and write to the controller. Turn off then on. It will then to an auto learn... wait until it has finished and the LED start flashing. Turn off then on. Read the settings again and you should see the "Identification Angle" is some other value.

That is the extent of the functions of Auto Learn.

yes. this is how it works. the angle is 85 during normal operation. set it to 170, restart the controller, it takes some time, the leds go off, and when you turn it on again the value is 85 again-
but i have no idea what it does. and imho you have to have the correct hall wire / phase wire combination first or it won't work. but i can retest it. it's not relevant anymore for me as i now already have the correct combination.
well. the motor is running fine. so what could i ask more. fany offered to explain every setting to me, so i will ask and update this thread with any new info so be got a working compendium.

 

[izeman]

After auto setup the motor just worked simple wiring simple setup.
HOWEVER with 28 motor pole (Kelly setting) it seems to be only able to spin to 2200 RPM.

could you please explain this in more detail? do you say that the auto setup set the correct number of motor poles as well? imho YOU have to set that. correct?
my motor doesn't seem to spin up that nicely as yours. there is a lot more oscillation in speed/rpm gain, also it doesn't cut power immediately when you release the throttle. it takes some time to spin down (longer than it normally would take if you just remove power). but i will test that again as well. i can check for the 12V output as well.

 

[SplinterOz]

I never had a hall/phase problem with this setup it just ran.
That said when I wanted to reverse the direction I just swapped two phase wires, did the auto identification (not sure I had to) and it spun the right way.

 

[SplinterOz]

After auto setup the motor just worked simple wiring simple setup.
HOWEVER with 28 motor pole (Kelly setting) it seems to be only able to spin to 2200 RPM.

could you please explain this in more detail? do you say that the auto setup set the correct number of motor poles as well? imho YOU have to set that. correct?
my motor doesn't seem to spin up that nicely as yours. there is a lot more oscillation in speed/rpm gain, also it doesn't cut power immediately when you release the throttle. it takes some time to spin down (longer than it normally would take if you just remove power). but i will test that again as well. i can check for the 12V output as well.

yep i set the motor pole value.
What I am saying is that at the moment without any other changes (only motor poles and then autosetup) the motor only gets to 2200 RPM and I have confirmed that with a tachometer.

Now with the motors 70KV that voltage should have seen around 3500 RPM. I could be likely that the eRPM (Kelly's term used on the old controllers) is too low. With the old controllers I needed the "High Speed" option to spin it up.

This may not be a problem I can solve with these controllers, that said I have other projects to use these controllers with.

I really do want others to check the "12volt" out of these controllers. Mine is very low, about 10.4 volts.

 

[izeman]

I never had a hall/phase problem with this setup it just ran.
That said when I wanted to reverse the direction I just swapped two phase wires, did the auto identification (not sure I had to) and it spun the right way.

maybe you got the correct combination by chance? i'll have to retry that. i can't imagine that someone build a controller in 2015 that doesn't have hall-auto-mode.
for the direction change you could have checked the "change direction" check-box in the vehicle tab for reversing the direction

 

[SplinterOz]

maybe you got the correct combination by chance? i'll have to retry that. i can't imagine that someone build a controller in 2015 that doesn't have hall-auto-mode.
for the direction change you could have checked the "change direction" check-box in the vehicle tab for reversing the direction

Possible, if I did get it right by chance it is the first time ever.

I didn't see that "change direction" option in the android program I have. will have to have a look tomorrow

 

[izeman]

I didn't see that "change direction" option in the android program I have. will have to have a look tomorrow

it's in the PC software for sure. but you need it only once anyway.

 

[izeman]

Also I have a question have you guys measured the 12v output from the controller? It seems that both of mine only put out about 10volts, not enough to drive the relay/contactor.

measured it. 10.78V

 

[SplinterOz]

Also I have a question have you guys measured the 12v output from the controller? It seems that both of mine only put out about 10volts, not enough to drive the relay/contactor.

measured it. 10.78V

Yea not good enough to pull in a relay let alone a contactor.

 

[izeman]

Also I have a question have you guys measured the 12v output from the controller? It seems that both of mine only put out about 10volts, not enough to drive the relay/contactor.

measured it. 10.78V

Yea not good enough to pull in a relay let alone a contactor.

what if you use it to switch a FET?

 

[SplinterOz]

what if you use it to switch a FET?

All possible just more complex.
Another question was your battery voltage at or above the rating of the controller?
just wondering if it is not a regulated supply.

Seems like it might be easier to feed 12v into the system as per the manual options around the brake input.

 

[izeman]

battery was 48V. controller is rated for 60V with a max of 72V.

 

[SplinterOz]

battery was 48V. controller is rated for 60V with a max of 72V.

Right mine was 54v for the same rating. hmm might put an extra battery in to see if that has an effect.

 

[circuit]

I wonder how it is with regen. In earlier versions of controllers, they had a fixed regen current (button). It worked quite well when decelerating from higher speeds, however braking often did not start when activating at low speed.
Has anyone tested how it is with these new FOC controllers?

 

[SplinterOz]

I wonder how it is with regen. In earlier versions of controllers, they had a fixed regen current (button). It worked quite well when decelerating from higher speeds, however braking often did not start when activating at low speed.
Has anyone tested how it is with these new FOC controllers?

These only have a brake input, not variable. And I think that there is some settings for deceleration on roll off throttle.
I am afraid that I will not be able to test this under load for a few weeks maybe.

 

[circuit]

Currently I'm wondering about minimum speed for brake to work. With other kelly controllers, even large 144V 400A ones, it would not brake if speed is below certain threshold, so you are not always sure if it will brake or not. You can test that no-load.

 

[izeman]

mid drive with geared motor. so no regen here. sorry.

 

[madin88]

i also noticed the problem with the braking. i asked fany and she answered it mostly depends on the battery. after i doubled the Ah (and lowered resistance by half) it worked much better.
still strange because even with the small battery i have not seen more than 1V increasing in voltage during regen, but maybe spikes have been much higher and the controller did cut out because of this, but thats only a guess..

 

[circuit]

We had this issue in various setups, from small bicycles to electric car... Explanation about battery is not true or at least incomplete.
This is a serioaus issue and would be great to know what to expect before ordering.

 

[izeman]

Ok but if battery current can be set to 100%, would this mean it will drain also up to 240A from the battery? Or is the battery current percentage related to the 100A continuous rating?
and does it really reduce current after 10sec to 100A?
one thing is sure: on KBSX controller it was like in my previous post (as also fany explained). the numbers the attached CA did show have confirmed this.

ok, now a calculation with this 120A controller:

phase amps set to 90% so 120A x 0,9 = 108A
battery amps set to 50% so those 108A x 0,5 = 54A

i just had a long discussion with fany from kellycontroller who is extremly supportive and i can really recommend him very highly!
we talked a lot about phase and battery current, and i can confirm your calculation.

my controller is 100A max battery, and 240A max phase current. so is want battery max set to 50A and phase amp set to 130A max (to make is similar to the old style infineon controllers which had a batteryhase ratio of 1:2.5
so you set phase amps to 55%: 240A * 55% = 132A, and i set battery amps to 39% of that: 132A * 39% = 51A.
so the motor would be fed with 132A phase during acceleration from stand still. while it's accelerating this phase amp will be linear reduced to battery amps. and at near full speed phase amp = battery amp max.
at higher speeds you won't that that high phase amps. and if you're not able to bring your motor up to speed in 10s than it's a good idea of the controller to reduce current for it's own sake, and for the motor's sake.

 

[madin88]

i was of the mind that fany is a female name. thanks to izeman now i know it's not

so the motor would be fed with 132A phase during acceleration from stand still. while it's accelerating this phase amp will be linear reduced to battery amps. and at near full speed phase amp = battery amp max.
at higher speeds you won't that that high phase amps. and if you're not able to bring your motor up to speed in 10s than it's a good idea of the controller to reduce current for it's own sake, and for the motor's sake.

i wonder what happens after 10sec if phase amps go again up to 132A when climibing a long steep grade. do you know if the controller than instant cut back to 100A?
the MAC i think never will draw so high amps for that amount of time, but a large high kV hub Motor definitely would.

 

[izeman]

yes he's male. i asked i hope it was not unpolite.
i have no idea what would happen after 10s. but it's easy to test. i just need to set it to very low values which could easily be drawn. then we'll see.
btw: i invited fany to joun us here. much easier and less work for him to answer our questions all at once instead of several times by email.

 

[SplinterOz]

I am working with Fany at the moment to get the motor spinning up fast.
Just a check list of things to test.

The 12v out of the controller is only designed for the inputs of the controller, brake, halls etc. so that is sorted.

I will keep you guys informed.

 

[SplinterOz]

We had this issue in various setups, from small bicycles to electric car... Explanation about battery is not true or at least incomplete.
This is a serioaus issue and would be great to know what to expect before ordering.

Ok I just tested by turning on the RLS_TP Brk % value to 5.
That means Release of Throttle Position Sensor Brake percent.

At any RPM with no load the motor is instantly stopped.

That seems to be very good news!.