New Kelly pseudo FOC controller series

[circuit]

We had this issue in various setups, from small bicycles to electric car... Explanation about battery is not true or at least incomplete.
This is a serioaus issue and would be great to know what to expect before ordering.

Ok I just tested by turning on the RLS_TP Brk % value to 5.
That means Release of Throttle Position Sensor Brake percent.

At any RPM with no load the motor is instantly stopped.

That seems to be very good news!.

Thank you very much, this is great news.

One more thing I would like to know.. Is it possible to select other type of throttle, I mean "joystick"? I am wondering if it will regen when going forward, but joystick is pushed for reverse. We could hack that to separate normal throttle + analogue brake signal to get on-the-fly adjustable braking force.

 

[SplinterOz]

Ok good news on this end.

Fany just sent me an updated application for the Android tablet that exposes a setting called Max Output Fre[quency].
By setting that to 1000 (default is 500) I was able to spin the 28 pole Colossus water cooled motor up to 3300 rpm on 52 volts. So that is 3300*14= 46200 Erpm

That is around 63kv (battery volts), The motor is rated at 70kv with the other controllers and I think I measured it at 68 or 69kv last test.

So it seems that my next step is testing under load.

Fany has been awesome with his support.

 

[circuit]

Fany also told me that it will run up to 70k eRPM.

 

[SplinterOz]

We had this issue in various setups, from small bicycles to electric car... Explanation about battery is not true or at least incomplete.
This is a serioaus issue and would be great to know what to expect before ordering.

Ok I just tested by turning on the RLS_TP Brk % value to 5.
That means Release of Throttle Position Sensor Brake percent.

At any RPM with no load the motor is instantly stopped.

That seems to be very good news!.

Thank you very much, this is great news.

One more thing I would like to know.. Is it possible to select other type of throttle, I mean "joystick"? I am wondering if it will regen when going forward, but joystick is pushed for reverse. We could hack that to separate normal throttle + analogue brake signal to get on-the-fly adjustable braking force.

Not that I can see.
There is two brake options, the release throttle and the brake switch input. I did ask about variable regen/brake but it does not appear to be an available option.

 

[SplinterOz]

Fany also told me that it will run up to 70k eRPM.

Me too but my first test was discouraging.
With the new setting it seems believable.
Fany confirmed with me via email that they have tested it to 48k eRPM

 

[circuit]

By the way, can someone compare this kelly with sabvoton? Which is better in terms of noise and power?

 

[SplinterOz]

By the way, can someone compare this kelly with sabvoton? Which is better in terms of noise and power?

I have a 2nd hand sabvoton... I will see if I can to it on the weekend.

 

[izeman]

By the way, can someone compare this kelly with sabvoton? Which is better in terms of noise and power?

do you think there is any difference in noise between any two sine wave controllers? i think the big step is from trapezoid to sine wave, but two sine wave wouldn't make too much difference?
but real life testing would be nice.

 

[circuit]

Sinewave is a very general term. There is huge difference between sine controller and FOC, when motor's bEMF is not a sine, but something in between. And even FOC to FOC are not exactly the same, depends on how current is limited, how exact rotor position is resolved, etc. There is a lot of algorithms and math, that could be done differently.

 

[izeman]

Sinewave is a very general term. There is huge difference between sine controller and FOC, when motor's bEMF is not a sine, but something in between. And even FOC to FOC are not exactly the same, depends on how current is limited, how exact rotor position is resolved, etc. There is a lot of algorithms and math, that could be done differently.

but i'm correct if i say that the new kelly = sine wave + foc? but no way to influence any factor of those two functions, correct?

 

[fany]

Yes,The programming is still based on RS232 port.It is the same as KBS-X controller.People need a 4pin connector to RS232 and USB to RS232 cable for programming purpose.The 4pin connector to RS232 converter will come with each order for free.
Right now we can provide two options for user program.One is based on Android Tablet.Customers may add a Z-TEK USB cable for programming purpose.
The other is based PC user program.Only USB to RS232 cable is required for user program on computer or laptop with Microsoft OS.
Android App is only available for KLS controller for now.And Tablet is prefered.Android Phone sometimes can be connected,sometimes not.Android Phone is not recommended.We will update this information in the manual and website.
Thanks for everyone!

Here are the new Kelly controllers, introducing FOC and an Anroid App. Seems like they will be programmable like the older series ones vie RS232-> USB adaper, too

Delivery date is not confirmed yet to my knowlage

SPECS for the smallest modell KLS6018S:
http://kellycontroller.com/sinusoidal-wave-brushless-motor-controller-kls24v-72v-c-105.html?osCsid=tp90c49e1q7oi6l1hmp0mdh2r1

KLS controller is supposed to reduce the noise of BLDC motor,especially for hub motor.The BLDC motor must be based on 3 hall sensors and it is necessary to use a Z-TEK USB to RS232 cable for programming controller.The APP software is based on Tablet with Android OS.

※You may buy Z-TEK USB to RS232 cable from our website.

Download Kelly KLS-S User Manual V1.3


General functions:
(1) Extended fault detection and protection. The LED flashing pattern indicates the fault sources.
(2) Monitoring battery voltage. It will stop driving if the battery voltage is too high and it will progressively cut back motor drive power as battery voltage drops until it cuts out altogether at the preset "Low Battery Voltage" setting.
(3) Built-in current loop and over current protection.
(4) Configurable motor temperature protection range.
(5) Current cutback at low temperature and high temperature to protect battery and controller.The current begins to ramp down at 90℃ case temperature, shutting down at 100℃.
(6) The controller keeps monitoring battery recharging voltage during braking.
(7) Maximum reverse speed is configurable to half of the maximum forward speed.
(8 ) A 4pin connector to RS232 port and a Z-TEK USB to RS232 cable allows for configuration,programming and software upgrades using the tablet which must be based on Android OS now.
(9) Provision of a +5 volt and +12 volt output to supply various kinds of hall sensors.
(10) 5 switch inputs which are activated by connection to 12V. Default to throttle switch, brake switch,reversing switch,forward switch and Boost switch.
(11) 2 analog 0-5V inputs that default to throttle input, and motor temperature input
(12) Copy signal of one of hall sensors.
(13) Configurable boost switch. Enables the maximum output power achievable if the switch is turned on.
(14) Maximum reverse power is configurable to half power.
(15) Configurable 12V brake signal input, in lieu of motor temperature sensor.
(16) Optional joystick throttle. A bi-symmetrical 0-5V signal for both forward and reversing.
(17) Configurable motor over-temperature detection and protection with the recommended thermistor KTY84-130.
(18) 3 hall position sensor inputs. Open collector, pull up provided. Caution! The regen is not a safe function.Usually you may use the mechanical brake.

Features:
1) Intelligence with powerful microprocessor.
2) Synchronous rectification, ultra low drop, fast SVPWM and FOC to achieve very high efficiency.
3) Electronic reversing.
4) Voltage monitoring on 3 motor phases, bus, and power supply.
5) Voltage monitoring on voltage source 12V and 5V.
6) Current sense on all 3 motor phases.
7) Current control loop.
8 ) Hardware over current protection.
9) Hardware over voltage protection.
10) Configurable limit for motor current and battery current.
11) Low EMC.
12) LED fault code.
13) Battery protection: current cutback, warning and shutdown at configurable high and low battery voltage.
14) Rugged aluminum housing for maximum heat dissipation and harsh environment.
15) Rugged high current terminals, and rugged aviation connectors for small signal.
16) Thermal protection: current cut back, warning and shutdown on high temperature.
17) Configurable 60 degree or 120 degree hall position sensors.
18 ) Configurable high pedal protection: the controller will not work if high throttle is detected at power on.
19) Current multiplication: Take less current from battery, output more current to motor.
20) Easy installation: 3-wire potentiometer will work.
21) Standard Tablet with Android OS to do programming. Need a Z-TEK USB to RS232 cable for connecting the controller to user program in Tablet.
22) User program provided. Easy to use. No cost to customers.

General Specifications:
•Frequency of Operation: 20kHz.
•Standby Battery Current: < 0.5mA.
•5V or 12V Sensor Supply Current: 40mA.
•Controller supply voltage range: PWR, 18V to 90V for controllers rated equal or lower than 72V.
•Supply Current, PWR, 30mA Typical.
•Configurable battery voltage range, B+. Max operating range: 18V to 1.25*Nominal Voltage.
•Standard Throttle Input: 0-5 Volts(3-wire resistive pot), 1-4 Volts(hall active throttle).
•Throttle Input: 0-5 Volts. Can use 3-wire pot to produce 0-5V signal.
•Main Contactor Coil Driver<2A.
•Full Power Operating Temperature Range: 0℃ to 70℃(MOSFET temperature).
•Operating Temper ature Range: -40℃to 100℃ (MOSFET temperature).
•Motor Current Limit, 10 seconds boost: 240A ,depending on the model.
•Motor Current Limit, continuous: 100A ,depending on the model.
•Max Battery Current :Configurable.

 

[fany]

The trapezoidal waveform controller used inquire mode to detect the hall signals.
Right now sinusoidal controller KLS is designed by new technical.
We used interrupt program to detect the hall signals.It is very fast by using interrupt mode.By default,KLS can support 70KeRPM.
But if the speed is too fast,the waveform is similar as trapezoidal waveform.Usually 60KeRPM-70KeRPM can meet most of the requests.

Unfortunately no erpm info, and that's the most important thing for RC motors.

 

[fany]

we can change/reprogram settings from the android app itself..? no need to connecting to PC ?

if able to change settings means,
android only model (with no rs232 or usb connectors, will reduce the size of board/price)-less complex
normal model with rs232 and other options.

Yes,people still can configuration existing parameters in the user program or Android APP.Android App or User program on PC can be used.It is your choice.
And both programs can provide monitor screen to read most of the parameters during running.It can be used as a display device for monitoring.
If you want to get a smaller display device,one of customers in Germany can do it.In my opinion,He is very professional.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=71671

 

[circuit]

Sinewave is a very general term. There is huge difference between sine controller and FOC, when motor's bEMF is not a sine, but something in between. And even FOC to FOC are not exactly the same, depends on how current is limited, how exact rotor position is resolved, etc. There is a lot of algorithms and math, that could be done differently.

but i'm correct if i say that the new kelly = sine wave + foc? but no way to influence any factor of those two functions, correct?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that true FOC just means that controller is adaptive to whatever shape of BEMF the motor has. Connected to BLDC it will output something close to trapezoidal, and connected to PMAC - something close to sinewave.
We just have to see how it is with Kelly.

By the way, Sabvoton just confirmed that all their controllers are available with proportional brake signal input.

 

[fany]

ok there WONT BE ANY PC SOFTWARE TO PROGRAM THIS KIND OF CONTROLLER according to fany. only way to program will be the android app through their native USB to RS232 interface.

so i have a big problem since i have no idea of this USB stuff. I own an android phone since 4 years now but never tried to connect any stuff via USB. USB is more like using it for uploading music/video on my phone :? how can this even work? I use my phone as a PC-DEVICE but never as a USB Master?!?

E-RPM limit is 40k erpm just like the KBS-X series

Sorry for confusion.The prereleasing version is 0103 software.We don't release PC software for KLS controller.But the controllers are all 0104 version after 08/25/2015.
They can support PC program and Android App also.
And Android Phone number is not recommended.We prefered to use Android Tablet.

Thanks,
Fany

 

[fany]

Works out of the box

As of KBS-X/KEB/KBL/KHB,the controller works out of the box.
If you use KLS controller,you may do an identification angle before running the motor.
Because the controller KLS needs to read the motor parameters and write back into the controller.
The performance will be better in this case.

 

[fany]

thanks for the infos crossbreak. i wonder if these FOC controllers now work better in combination with direct drive hubs. As example the KBSX are a bad choice if you want serious torque at low RPM.

KLS60181S has been tested.It can provide silence control and huge torque.KBS-X is trapezoidal controller.It will produce noise.

 

[fany]

i can't see any software download?!
is kelly asking us to buy an usb<->rs232 adapter and an android tablet (together $140 plus p&p, plus import and sales tax) just to configure the controller? or will the software be free for download?
i guess as soon as someone has bought the tablet the cracked app will be available anyhow, so this makes no big sense to me.

Android App is just one of options for now.Customers can use PC software for programming KLS now.It is for KLS 0104 version.As of pre releasing version,it is 0103 which can not support PC software.And we provided updating in short time for PC software.Not many people buy Z-TEK USB cable.We will consider removing it from website.

 

[fany]

izeman i thought so... 2 things i know kelly are famous for is soft starts and exaggerated performance ... not knocking these though they look good.
On performance .... we will have to wait for the first members assessment.

i just read

you can configure controller with a host computer with rs232
or usb port

Edit Update! good news, got a contact from kelly they dont have the windows software ready now, but i have got the android apk, installed it on my android phone and works
As far as i can tell without a controller.
Its a first edition not sexy but quite a few parameters batt volt / motor temp/ halls all that stuff... and i read they will be updating it.
izeman i suppose the tablet option from kelly is for those who dont want to use there expensive phone.

If the controller is shipped in August,they can support PC software now.And all the softwares can be downloaded from our website for free.
Sometimes Android Phone can be used.Anyway Android Tablet is prefered.

 

[circuit]

i can't see any software download?!
is kelly asking us to buy an usb<->rs232 adapter and an android tablet (together $140 plus p&p, plus import and sales tax) just to configure the controller? or will the software be free for download?
i guess as soon as someone has bought the tablet the cracked app will be available anyhow, so this makes no big sense to me.

Android App is just one of options for now.Customers can use PC software for programming KLS now.It is for KLS 0104 version.As of pre releasing version,it is 0103 which can not support PC software.And we provided updating in short time for PC software.Not many people buy Z-TEK USB cable.We will consider removing it from website.

Make it affordable, same price as in other shops, and people will buy it. But not 10 times more.

 

[fany]

seems like there are 5 models with different sizes:

KLS..12s, 18s, 25s, 30s and 40s
the 12s has same size as KBS-X

yes,this is only for KLS-S series.
Can offer higher power than KLS-S,such as KLS-D,KLS-8080I.
KLS-8080I is isolated controller,similar as KHB but sinusoidal waveform.
KLS-D/8080I included fuse and shunt on the case of the controllers.

 

[fany]

i can't see any software download?!
is kelly asking us to buy an usb<->rs232 adapter and an android tablet (together $140 plus p&p, plus import and sales tax) just to configure the controller? or will the software be free for download?
i guess as soon as someone has bought the tablet the cracked app will be available anyhow, so this makes no big sense to me.

Android App is just one of options for now.Customers can use PC software for programming KLS now.It is for KLS 0104 version.As of pre releasing version,it is 0103 which can not support PC software.And we provided updating in short time for PC software.Not many people buy Z-TEK USB cable.We will consider removing it from website.

Make it affordable, same price as in other shops, and people will buy it. But not 10 times more.

OK.Thanks for suggestions.We will do it.We got them in a high price also.There is no volume order for the cables for Kelly now.
And it is not 10 times more between $16 vs $35.

 

[fany]

60 × 240 = 15 Kw.
An adapto max-e is 10KW and the new one will be 12KW. If you drop few KW you can get a much smaller max-e!

no. the equation is wrong. kelly always rates their controllers for PHASE amps. so this is really a 100A current phase and 240A boost for 10s.
but for this there is a MUCH lower voltage than 60V. so basically this controller should be good for 3-4kW.

You are very similar with Kelly controller.Thanks for explanation

 

[circuit]

Not many people buy Z-TEK USB cable.We will consider removing it from website.

Make it affordable, same price as in other shops, and people will buy it. But not 10 times more.

OK.Thanks for suggestions.We will do it.We got them in a high price also.There is no volume order for the cables for Kelly now.
And it is not 10 times more between $16 vs $35.

People check prices on other places, like ebay. We bought several USB-USART (RS232 TTL) cables for 2 USD each, shipping included. When you see $35, it makes you rethink what your are paying for.
It is of course good practice to buy everything from one supplier, but price should be right.

 

[fany]

i tested the controller on my mid-drive bike. and i must say I'M SOOO HAPPY.
this controller REALLY ROCKS. it's SUPER POWERFUL, SUPER SILENT and SUPER SMOOTH! i couldn't ask for more. maybe it's too powerful for my motor, as 240A phase amps may burn the windings.
it was only a few km test ride, but it was enough to say, that this is BY FAR the best controller i ever had. after i removed the controller and connected the old kelly again i was really shocked about the motor noise. all i hear now is a very little noise that comes from the internal gears and chains. the motor itself may only contribute very little to the noise. now the bike is as it should always have been. i can ride through the forest and may be seen as a regular biker. before the bike had a very high pitched noise that was not nice.

i also noticed that the bike is as fast as NO LOAD speed. so with lifted rear wheel i get the same speed as on flat going WOT. but maybe i'm wrong. i will have to test again to verify that.

there still are some things to solve:
-) best battery/phase relation.
-) max phase current (battery current will be regulated by the CA profiles)
-) the motor doesn't stop if i release the throttle. it takes some time to come to a stand
-) going WOT on the bike stand (rear wheel lifted from the floor) makes the motor pump. so it revs up and down and up and down again. this may be some controller internal mechanism that stops current/rpm from overshooting, as it doesn't occur while riding.

and there are some paramters that i don't really understand and that are not explained in the manual. especially the last three are totally unclear.

-) the motor doesn't stop if i release the throttle. it takes some time to come to a stand
Can try to enable RLS_TPS BRK regen to a certain value which will help stop motor quickly.