New project. Trike, customer wants it to go fast

[rborger73]

Very cool build, thanks for sharing!
How are you liking the Mxus 3T? and what size battery pack did you put in it?
I like your adaptto screen mount. interested to know what front brakes you used
and if you ended up using a steering dampener? if you did could you post some details on that.
Interesting battery box never seen one quite like it, would love to see some more pics.

Thanks! The mxus 3t seems great. Went with 20s 10Ah for the moment. I thought of bumping it up to 21 or 22s, but from what I've read 20s is the sweet spot. Room to fit up to 30Ah with no problem. I ran it as fast as the back roads would allow on a single charge and had no problem doing 12 to 14 miles with it and still room left. If this were for commuting I could easily add a rear rack and panniers to go to 50Ah or more. Since he is mainly going to take it with him to the track to show off to people, he won't need the longer range.

Adaptto mount took me a few months of kicking ideas around and how to best have it mounted. Obviously wherever it is the person will have to look down to some degree. Where it is feels more like looking at the speed in your car while driving.

The "battery box" is a full lower deck plate, and everything creates a sort of Unified body/ frame. Everything is interconnected and it makes the whole trike body very strong. I've not seen anything done quite the way I'm doing it.

Steering damper honestly might help some, but so far don't see needing it yet. It will without question steer very quick, so at higher speeds you absolutely have to stay focused when riding.

 

[farmerjoe99]

Thanks! The mxus 3t seems great. Went with 20s 10Ah for the moment. I thought of bumping it up to 21 or 22s, but from what I've read 20s is the sweet spot. Room to fit up to 30Ah with no problem. I ran it as fast as the back roads would allow on a single charge and had no problem doing 12 to 14 miles with it and still room left. If this were for commuting I could easily add a rear rack and panniers to go to 50Ah or more. Since he is mainly going to take it with him to the track to show off to people, he won't need the longer range.

Yea it definitely doesn't seem to lack battery space 8) I'm hopefully going to be build a e-trike as well with a V3 3T mxus 3000
glad to here you like you mxus so far. I'm not sure if the adaptto has it but were you using 120% over speed to reach the 53mph or is that "stock"?

The "battery box" is a full lower deck plate, and everything creates a sort of Unified body/ frame. Everything is interconnected and it makes the whole trike body very strong. I've not seen anything done quite the way I'm doing it.

so in some ways its kind of like combining the below frame box like FFR/outriders but also with a behind seat box
as well as it looks like it has its own support cage?

I believe you mentioned a page back you are build two of these one for the race car driver made for
short high speed rides and another for a medium speed long range rider,

What motor are you planning to use for the other build and will you use the KMX frame again our are you going to build your own?
Would you build in suspension if you make your own frames? would also be interested if you end up building a velo shell for it

 

[rborger73]

Thanks! The mxus 3t seems great. Went with 20s 10Ah for the moment. I thought of bumping it up to 21 or 22s, but from what I've read 20s is the sweet spot. Room to fit up to 30Ah with no problem. I ran it as fast as the back roads would allow on a single charge and had no problem doing 12 to 14 miles with it and still room left. If this were for commuting I could easily add a rear rack and panniers to go to 50Ah or more. Since he is mainly going to take it with him to the track to show off to people, he won't need the longer range.

Yea it definitely doesn't seem to lack battery space 8) I'm hopefully going to be build a e-trike as well with a V3 3T mxus 3000
glad to here you like you mxus so far. I'm not sure if the adaptto has it but were you using 120% over speed to reach the 53mph or is that "stock"?

The "battery box" is a full lower deck plate, and everything creates a sort of Unified body/ frame. Everything is interconnected and it makes the whole trike body very strong. I've not seen anything done quite the way I'm doing it.

so in some ways its kind of like combining the below frame box like FFR/outriders but also with a behind seat box
as well as it looks like it has its own support cage?

I believe you mentioned a page back you are build two of these one for the race car driver made for
short high speed rides and another for a medium speed long range rider,

What motor are you planning to use for the other build and will you use the KMX frame again our are you going to build your own?
Would you build in suspension if you make your own frames? would also be interested if you end up building a velo shell for it

That was full boost mode, plus the traction control tweak I believe. I've hit just shy of 60 with it. I think it was 58.9, but I let off as I had to turn back in the driveway. I think gps will show I'm probably around 56mph. I was hitting 52mph on gps when I first was testing, and it is faster since then, but not sure I'm officially at 58.9.

Yes I suppose I'm combining both a box and a frame box. I have the batteries placed so I can stack them up to the seat bottom and right in front of the tire there is a lot of room to stack them.

I'll probably do a few more with the Kmx frames, but ya I think it will save me a lot of money to do a frame very close to the kmx myself and setup a jig to make it quicker in the future. I want to widen the front stance by about 3" and raise it up off the tires a bit more for better visibility. We need something in between an ELF and a basic etrike. This one I love because you can jump on it quickly, hit a button, put your feet on the pedals, twist the throttle and go. I've thought about trying some of the premade front nose cones for the wind deflection. One I know is under 100.00 USD. I eventually want to so a velo of some sort for sure.

I spent about a year researching and building this trike. I did it in a very cost effective way, which made it way stronger than it was, and it handles way better than it did with just the batteries and motor strapped onto it with the stock frame. No flex to it when you turn now.

Yes Ideally I could use front suspension like the upgraded offered on here for sale, and also could build a rear swing up setup with my design with little issue. That would probably limit having a rear rack then, but still could have 30Ah on board. Should give a good 30 mile range if not more at mostly speed limit speeds. (car speed limits on rural and back roads of course).

The other longer range Trike is on hold. That guy owned a paving business and lost his driving license for a while. He wanted the trike to go out trying to sell jobs in the areas they pave, since he had to have someone drive him to do it. But he got his license back, so he still wants one, just not in a rush for it. He can be flaky, so I'll wait till the deposit is in hand to start ordering parts.

 

[farmerjoe99]

That was full boost mode, plus the traction control tweak I believe. I've hit just shy of 60 with it. I think it was 58.9, but I let off as I had to turn back in the driveway. I think gps will show I'm probably around 56mph. I was hitting 52mph on gps when I first was testing, and it is faster since then, but not sure I'm officially at 58.9.

That is moving pretty quick not quite sure I'd have the nerve to go quite that fast but I'm hoping to
top out around 45mph on my trike build probably end up suing it mainly in the 30-35mph range.

Yes I suppose I'm combining both a box and a frame box. I have the batteries placed so I can stack them up to the seat bottom and right in front of the tire there is a lot of room to stack them.

is it welded on you did you bolt it? That's handy, could probably use it as a small storage compartment as well then?

I'll probably do a few more with the Kmx frames, but ya I think it will save me a lot of money to do a frame very close to the kmx myself and setup a jig to make it quicker in the future. I want to widen the front stance by about 3" and raise it up off the tires a bit more for better visibility. We need something in between an ELF and a basic etrike. This one I love because you can jump on it quickly, hit a button, put your feet on the pedals, twist the throttle and go. I've thought about trying some of the premade front nose cones for the wind deflection. One I know is under 100.00 USD. I eventually want to so a velo of some sort for sure.

Well i look forward to seeing your future builds, and I would guess you might be able to sell a few trike frames on here if you end up making them.

I spent about a year researching and building this trike. I did it in a very cost effective way, which made it way stronger than it was, and it handles way better than it did with just the batteries and motor strapped onto it with the stock frame. No flex to it when you turn now.

Yes Ideally I could use front suspension like the upgraded offered on here for sale, and also could build a rear swing up setup with my design with little issue. That would probably limit having a rear rack then, but still could have 30Ah on board. Should give a good 30 mile range if not more at mostly speed limit speeds. (car speed limits on rural and back roads of course).

The other longer range Trike is on hold. That guy owned a paving business and lost his driving license for a while. He wanted the trike to go out trying to sell jobs in the areas they pave, since he had to have someone drive him to do it. But he got his license back, so he still wants one, just not in a rush for it. He can be flaky, so I'll wait till the deposit is in hand to start ordering parts.

 

[macribs]

Well i look forward to seeing your future builds, and I would guess you might be able to sell a few trike frames on here if you end up making them.

Second that. Build looks sturdy.
Would like to see more close ups of the welded tubes for battery box if you got.

 

[rborger73]

Well i look forward to seeing your future builds, and I would guess you might be able to sell a few trike frames on here if you end up making them.

Second that. Build looks sturdy.
Would like to see more close ups of the welded tubes for battery box if you got.

No tubes. I thought of welding a tube frame up as I have an Aluminum welder, but it needs a new spool and liner. Haven't felt like spending money or time getting it up, but I'll need it soon. This construction starts with the base, the lower deck if you will. I can't recall have to measure, but either 3/16" or 1/4" diamond plate cut to maximize the space available. That is bolted on using the original seat mount bolts, and at a few other spots on the frame. From there I made an aluminum frame out of 1/16" aluminum strips. Forming the basic shape of the body I wanted. Each piece was measured and cut and as close to asymmetrical as I could get.

Once the frame was bolted to both the lower deck and the seat frame all the pieces were then tied horizontally together. This is how I formed the initial shell. I had plastic sheets that I thought I could get away with melting and bending it over the frame, but no luck on it looking good without a heat press of some sort. So back to the Sheet metal wheelhouse I went. Each pieces was cut and fitted as in between the aluminum frame. Most of the sheet metal is attached with rivets. Sort of aircraft style. So basically I made a unibody trike.. I'm going to paint it like it is all one color, which is white to match the frame, and let the customer play with it during race season. If I don't build another one before that, I'll take his and do a finish coat of fiberglass and get it fully smooth. Then I'll make my molds. I'll do either fiberglass or carbon fiber and use the same method with the aluminum strips embedded in the fiberglass or carbon fiber. Then the strips will attach to the seat frame and the lower deck the same as my sheetmetal version, and probably be stronger if carbon fiber. I really do like the exposed aluminum strips. This one is called the Amoev "Matus XR" for experimental, since it has that aircraft look to it.

Oh and I just was testing the chain room so was out just pedaling it around on my slopped big driveway / parking lot and I haven't really checked tipping risk since I added the shell. I can't get it to tip under pedal power at full pedaling coming down a slope prob doing 15 my 17 I can turn full and hard and the wheel won't lift. I tipped it messing around pedaling when I first got it testing it's limits. Used my hand as a training wheel in the gravel... lol so only partial tip, but ya now... can't get it to lift. Very happy. If I add the front suspension and another 10 or 20Ah of weight to it, this thing will feel closer to a gokart I think.

 

[rborger73]

If I do a full Etrike with the carbon fiber sides, 20s 20Ah fully painted with badging all on, lighting front and rear turn signals with Adaptto mini e. What is a fair price for someone that is aware of said risks... ? Ball park guesses are fine..


The key to a decent return is of course doing my own frames and getting the needed parts in volume. With the proper planning a trike could be done maybe one every week or two with molds for the sides and pre cut lengths for the aluminum and deck plates pre cut. This one took me a year to build with planning and researching, and trying ideas and throwing them out. The problem of course if I'd start to sell alot, liability comes into play. I'd have to invest in bulk warning stickers, but all good. I don't know.. I'd be happy doing one a month and when I have a jig setup selling frames. Frames wouldn't take me that long to do after a few practice frames.

 

[Chalo]

Keep it non toxic please.

Sorry if I poked the elderly badger, but honestly-- this kind of project is representative of the things that will impede the adoption and legality of e-bikes going forward. I hope it stays on groomed, closed racetracks, both for the rider's sake and in the interest of the rest of us.

 

[LockH]

:wink:
http://www.rahtmobile.com/

 

[rborger73]

Keep it non toxic please.

Sorry if I poked the elderly badger, but honestly-- this kind of project is representative of the things that will impede the adoption and legality of e-bikes going forward. I hope it stays on groomed, closed racetracks, both for the rider's sake and in the interest of the rest of us.

Listen Bike mechanic.. Stay please, out of my threads. Thank you.. Go lube some chains, and adjust some brakes. Even if it was used offtrack.. it has a throttle.. it has 3 programmable settings... I think the 74 year old race car driver and builder, along with his son and grandson, also race car drivers and builders... will do just fine without your "compelling" advice... They race dirt track doing 100 mph + so please... just stop.. I've already put 100 miles or more on this just testing it.. ON THE ROADS... Keeping up with cars... rural, back roads... ZOMG.. I might even ride it around town, pushing the speed limits.. And I'm going to tell everyone to contact Chalo... Seriously you are a pebble in the shoe of this forum along with handful of other Ne'er-do-wells that seem scared of life in general.. Every time I've posted or asked for advice on this forum, in they come.. Please if you have nothing actually constructive to add, keep it to yourself. I've had to make at least a half dozen posts explaining this customer KNOWS THE FFING RISKS..

He has Ultra lights, helicopters, race cars, 3 wheel electric trucks, Motor cycles, ... this guy has money and spends it on toys.. PLEASE just go to some forum to discuss fur hats and bike lube... Thanks..

 

[dogman dan]

Well, FWIW, I agree with Chalo on that one.

I don't really approve of people street riding blatantly illegal vehicles. Track it all you want, Test it on private property all you want. Ride it and kill yourself, fine.

But get enough unregistered, uninsured, home made "motorcycles with bike pedals" on the streets, and next thing you know, you get the Australian ebike law in the US.

Or you just get a big crackdown, such as has been happening this month in Shanghai.

But I can express my opinion in your damn thread all I want. You don't ever, own a thread on ES. What I can't do, is call you, or even your customer names. That does cross the line for this forum. You can say, "that's a stupid idea" You can't say, "you are stupid".

We moderate very lightly here. That was the first deletion I have done in about a full year, that was not some spammer. Better to delete two posts, than toss the whole thread into toxic.

 

[farmerjoe99]

If I do a full Etrike with the carbon fiber sides, 20s 20Ah fully painted with badging all on, lighting front and rear turn signals with Adaptto mini e. What is a fair price for someone that is aware of said risks... ? Ball park guesses are fine..


The key to a decent return is of course doing my own frames and getting the needed parts in volume. With the proper planning a trike could be done maybe one every week or two with molds for the sides and pre cut lengths for the aluminum and deck plates pre cut. This one took me a year to build with planning and researching, and trying ideas and throwing them out. The problem of course if I'd start to sell alot, liability comes into play. I'd have to invest in bulk warning stickers, but all good. I don't know.. I'd be happy doing one a month and when I have a jig setup selling frames. Frames wouldn't take me that long to do after a few practice frames.

Hmm hard to say... I know outrider trikes are $10,000+ but they have a very small specialty market
while I would absolutely love to have one its going to take a one in a million deal for me to get one.

Not sure for a complete trike but for just a frame if it had rear suspension then if you could get it in the same price
as KMX that would be cool(so $400ish) but while I have experience working with machinist's and making things,
I don't know what it would take/ what your cost would be to build a trike frame...
So my wishes maybe very very unrealistic...

But just running some ##'s for EV components maybe like around $4000? for a trike
with say a Mxus 3000 and adaptto mini on a rear suspension frame(I imagine front suspension would add a couple hundred $$$)
plus wheels turn signals etc..

Which personally is more than I would spend on a non road legal EV at the moment
but I think there would be a market for it as that would give you a very capable comfortable commuter or just fun trike.
with a good amount of power as well as range. at a very competitive price I would guess you wouldn't want to
go over the $6,000 mark if possible but its seems people are willing to pay that for a pre-built high end Ebike so the the market might be there?

Especially if you offered it at different levels so people could buy certain components and mix in some of their own
to build a trike... which I would think would be preferable for people like those on ES who might already have some components
ready for such a build. Which is more what I would be interested to see.

Another motor that comes to mind would be the Leaf 1500w hubmotor that would be a fair bit cheaper while still offering
pretty darn good power and performance depending on the what the customers need are.

Depending on how hard the install is you might consider selling the battery box for KMX trikes as well...?

 

[farmerjoe99]

Personally what I would look for in such a trike is capable of sustaining 30mph on a 4% grade
without fear of overheating quickly, preferably a top speed of 35-40ish for fun and aslo
so on 30 mph streets you can keep with traffic. and with a range of 20-30 miles cruising at 25-30 mph
with a few small hills.

front or rear suspension would be a big plus, full suspension would be even better but more costly.
turn signals and a head light would be nice and the option for a fairing like the windrap wgx would be nice as well.
and it would increase your battery range a fair bit.

A built in charger would be a plus as well which you could do with the adaptto system though I haven't looked into how plug and play friendly that if for the customer?

Just some thoughts as to what might be wanted from a a customer.

 

[farmerjoe99]

Well my thoughts is this,
Just because a bike can go fast and can be dangerous and can break the law
it can only do that if the driver does it! I agree powerful bikes with reckless drivers
are very very bad for the chances of making ebike laws pass. but lets looks at the real problem here
it is the user the person driving or using the item not the item itself that is bad.

I've read about a lot of people that have very powerful bike that are technically not road legal
but if you drive respectfully and follow traffic laws then I believe you are actually leaving a positive impact,
don't be a jerk like some, and people will instead of hating that ebiker either accept it or like and encourage ebike
legality and might get one themselves.

 

[macribs]

Yeah spoken like a true NRA member. It is not the gun that kills, it is the people behind the trigger. :lol: :wink:

Spoiler: Digression

I don't mind high power builds, in fact I enjoy reading about crazy fast builds. It is however rare to see a 60 mph build without suspension so that was the reason I even commented on suspension or the lack of in the first place. I do how ever understand that the client is a racer and used to both powerful toys and know how to handle them. And OP explained all that very well. So my worries was put to rest.

I am not up to date on trikes, I have to admit that. I've done some riding on 3 wheeled cargo bike with a 2 stroke motor some years ago and thinking back I can still remember how the vibrations from both the motor and the road surface travel up the frame into handlebars, seat etc. Can't remember max speed but probably 20-25 mph and I don't know if I would have dared to go much faster, and that stupid front loading trike was prone to lifting the outer wheel in curves. A soft frame with some flex did not add to the confidence. By all means I am not comparing that old crap trike to this custom build in any ways as this has a custom sub frame that will add stiffness and help avoid flex as well as added width for stability. It was more a rant to explain why I chose to ask about suspension.

 

[rborger73]

Well, FWIW, I agree with Chalo on that one.

I don't really approve of people street riding blatantly illegal vehicles. Track it all you want, Test it on private property all you want. Ride it and kill yourself, fine.

But get enough unregistered, uninsured, home made "motorcycles with bike pedals" on the streets, and next thing you know, you get the Australian ebike law in the US.

Or you just get a big crackdown, such as has been happening this month in Shanghai.

But I can express my opinion in your damn thread all I want. You don't ever, own a thread on ES. What I can't do, is call you, or even your customer names. That does cross the line for this forum. You can say, "that's a stupid idea" You can't say, "you are stupid".

We moderate very lightly here. That was the first deletion I have done in about a full year, that was not some spammer. Better to delete two posts, than toss the whole thread into toxic.

For crying out loud. Just about anyone running an adaptto with a decent motor and more than 18s would be in the same category. Not ONCE in this thread has it been said this customer will ride this on the street. Keep in mind in this area you see dirt bikes, atv's go karts, whatever running up and down the roads. Just PLEASE for FFcks sake... Stop with the worry of danger. I've spent MORE time talking about whether MY customer knows the risks. I'm just about done on this forum. Seriously. I take time and effort to share so others might get enjoyment, or find tricks or tips they can use, and all I GD get is harassment.

There are 3 settings he can easily pick if he wants to ride it on the road at a slow pace, at a top of legal pace, or offroad ripping it up. I'll build one that does 100mph if someone has the money and wants it. Seriously I'm done sharing if I hear another word of it. You can have this thread and the forum and I'll no longer post. This is a project thread, and half of it is people telling me things I didn't want, then things I said I DON'T want, then things that had little to do with the conversation.

Most frustrating..

 

[slacker]

rborger73, love reading about your project. Put the people you do not want to hear from on your ignore list so you do not have to deal with their ignorant comments. I for one am thinking about starting a similar project and hope you keep posting. good day.

 

[Wheazel]

If you have a nice budget, why not modify the frame to a full suspension build?
It would make a world of difference on this type of project in my opinion!

 

[docnjoj]

Please continue to write about your trike! Those of us that ride trikes are interested in this topic.
Thanks
otherDoc

 

[migueralliart]

I'll chime in since I have been riding my trike for some years now.

If 40mph is the goal for some sort of cruising speed DO NOT GET A KMX trike.

People will say its fun and all but a single bump, pot hole, distraction will be bad for you.

The fastest I ride my trike cruising is 35mph with no traffic and I feel unsafe at that speed on perfectly paved roads. The steering is too responsive at those speeds in the kmx trikes.

The obvious advantage of a trike is comfort and efficiency. You get much more range out of your pack since you use less wh/mi specially at higher speeds.

 

[recumpence]

I disagree about the stability at speed on a kmx trike. A couple of things increase stability, one thing is large diameter front wheels. The tiny 16 inch front wheels are more jittery than 20 inchers. Also a steering dampener solves any instability problems.

 

[migueralliart]

I disagree about the stability at speed on a kmx trike. A couple of things increase stability, one thing is large diameter front wheels. The tiny 16 inch front wheels are more jittery than 20 inchers. Also a steering dampener solves any instability problems.

I have the 20 inch front rims and hookworms with bb7 203mm front discs and a rear modded 9c on a 26" rim. If someone wants cruising speeds that high the KMX's were not built for that and will incur in modification and cost to get them comfy and safe.

Its one thing to build these trikes to be fast and fun but cruising at higher speeds is definitely not the same as doing burnouts and getting quick pulls. It requires much more attention to the road than a bicycle. This is my personal opinion and doesn't necessarily makes me right but I feel much safer/comfortable on my mtb at 35mph than my trike at that same speed.

Start looking into trikes that have suspension and steering dampener options etc.

 

[rborger73]

The difference being the flex in the frame on a stock kmx, compared to my project which every part of the frame and seat frame are all tied together into one solid strong unflexible unit. Yes it was really twitchy when still a stock frame, now you just have to have caution and pay attention when going over 45mph. I have 20" Hookworms on the front. Feels absolutely nothing like it did originally. You can push as hard as you want on the sides of the Unibody and you won't move it or feel anything give. I built this like a tank. I am unable to get either of the front wheels to lift off the ground now pedaling with a fully cut wheel in a circle. The weight is only making a slight difference, it is mostly the strength of everything being tied together that makes it much more stable.

Steering damper may end up on it yet, but honestly so far it makes you pay attention, when you should be paying attention. Feels more like steering a gokart now. It will still zip in whatever direction just by seemingly thinking of the direction, and it absolutely would likely roll if someone didn't respect physics as they should. But ya, no frame flex makes a ridiculous amount of difference. The 800.000 suspension kit someone sells on here may also be fitted. It will be up to the customer. Around 3400.00 in parts with the trike itself so far.

 

[rborger73]

I've decided instead of painting the hull white to match I've taken all the paint off the stock frame where it is visible and made it look like brushed steel / aluminum. Doing the hull the same way using scotch brite pads to simulate a brushed look. Clear coating it all that way. Since this is a demo this will be a test to see if there are any adhesian issues. Keep in mind this is temporary anyways. The customer is going to test it and abuse it and see what issues come up. I'm taking it back once it is too cold out for him to play with and making molds of the sides. The idea being I can make the molds, then make either fiberglass or carbon fiber panels, with the aluminum strips embedded. The bottom deck plates I have a template for and can get a bunch of those cut at once. Regardless of the amount of power I put in future models, my plan has always been to figure out the cheapest, coolest, most sturdy, and efficient way to build a trike like this with a unibody style construction. I will likely try aluminum sheet of the same gauge as well. This first one had some learning curve to how I wanted to do everything. I thought for weeks on most details of how I was doing this. I may offer just a brushed aluminum version of this in the future. I can have everything pre cut via templates. Deck plate mounts to the existing kmx frame (which will in the future be a custom one once I make a jig), pre cut aluminum strips attach to the lower deck, then to a piece of angle bolted to the existing seat frame. This builds the basic hull. Framing in for access doors. Then aluminum angle in the rear center mounts to the lower frame then to the seat frame. I used metal tin for sheet metal to fill the spaces between the aluminum strips, but I think I'm going to switch over to aluminum sheet and offer a fully brushed aluminum model.

Theoretically I could make the hulls for very little, and assemble one in full with preparation in a week or two. Right now I'm just enjoying building it, but the plan is to do a lot more customs, and possibly small specialty line of ebike and etrikes. Likely just two models if so.

Is a full brushed aluminum hull a selling point, or customers would prefer painted? Aluminum feels more like art somehow.. lol

 

[dequinox]

Before
img]https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/11401334_1073841575977183_729352511069524263_n.jpg?oh=ba729d778bad1ce7d238e1169702f5dd&oe=57A6AD14[/img]
After
img]https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13133171_1286419334719405_3165278207675892130_n.jpg?oh=416948385ea59a5e9a687f236b822037&oe=57E21067[/img]
There have been changes since the After pic as well. I'll update again when I do the final pics. Cabling and motor wires are run inside aluminum angle on the tops of rear arms as well.

Nicely done! I like the aluminum sheet work too, almost gives it a 1930's aircraft feel.