Nine Continents 9C verses Hightekbikes 10H

[johnrobholmes]

@ Toorbough- At that large of motor, radial is really the only way to keep the spoke breakage down with normal mtb rims. Just no two ways around it. As much as I love bigger motors for the power they make, until we see some better rims to go along it just seems silly. Practically every kit is laced 1x with these large motors, and as a wheelbuilder it burns my buns. I can hear the nipples screaming for mercy!

 

[BLUESTREAK]

I don't like doing this but I agree with (TOORBOUGH) TERRY you should have to stuck with trying to sell your new product without calling JASON a thief and the gall of editing your post as if you never said anything bad about him and no one would ever know you said it. you have no SHAME.

 

[chroot]

Lets show who best motor hub shoot contest! 9C 9x7 vs Maxi Might vs X5 series vs 4-series xlyte using LiPo 44v, 66v, and 88v with Lyen controller setup.

Show who's best shoot.

 

[dogman dan]

Too bad we all live so far apart from eachother. It would be realllly cool to do some real head to head comparisons. Drag races up a 7% hill, that sort of thing, but all using the same controllers and batteries. I've tried, but not everybody sends me freebies and I'm not deep pocketed enough to buy a lot of stuff.

If the world challenge race comes off this summer, it would be real cool if some folks showed up with some unmodified bikes just to do a comparison on the drag strip and hill climb parts of the races.

 

[chroot]

I agree, I could challenge Terry since he live in north california about 1 hour away from my place and I could ask illa and Lyen come along head to head contest on varies motor hub on the flat road and uphill. It would be awesome review!

Too bad we all live so far apart from eachother. It would be realllly cool to do some real head to head comparisons. Drag races up a 7% hill, that sort of thing, but all using the same controllers and batteries. I've tried, but not everybody sends me freebies and I'm not deep pocketed enough to buy a lot of stuff.

If the world challenge race comes off this summer, it would be real cool if some folks showed up with some unmodified bikes just to do a comparison on the drag strip and hill climb parts of the races.

 

[HTB_Terry]

Dogman, I had you in mind for the unbiased tester. If you have time I will send you a motor.
I received several messages from people, most basically telling me not to worry about the rude comments (I don't) and had several questions. It seems I was not clear on the background of this motor. Someone mentioned the Maxi-Might which has absolutely nothing to to with the 10H. We are developing the maxi with Aotema and is brand new. That is in Beta test now, and we already have an issue with the axle so that will be re-done.

The 10H is a motor designed and sold by another company (A in the post). We are a re-seller and just re-branded it. We looked all over (yes, we evaluated the 9C) for the best geared and DD motors to compliment the Aotema and found then in our own backyard. Since they were already available, why re-invent the wheel? I don't have the fifty grand development costs anyway. So company A, B, and C are real companies, I just didn't want to drag any other company names into what I expected (boy was I right) to be a controversial post. To some people it sounded like a big promotional deal (like the Maxi) for a new motor from HTB, actually it was meant to be more of an expose. Lots of dealers sell this motor under another name. I'm sure a few of you already have it, but it has been hugely overshadowed by the 9C.

 

[auraslip]

I don't like doing this but I agree with (TOORBOUGH) TERRY you should have to stuck with trying to sell your new product without calling JASON a thief and the gall of editing your post as if you never said anything bad about him and no one would ever know you said it. you have no SHAME.

Every six months Company B here in the States, buys a kit from company A and sends it to China. After arriving at the 9C factory it goes to the "copy room" where it is examined. Six months later, wala! a new version is released.

5. Designed the motors to accept disk brakes standard ISO. Again 9c tried to copy 6 months later but their design is a bit different and the disc does not fit as well.

Ebikekit.com was selling the new 6 hole 9c disc hubs before ebike.ca, but ebike.ca had them listed on their website before ebikekit.com. I don't think the time frame for copying designs would work.
In any case, we understand how the Chinese market works; the lax IP laws allows for copying of designs. This has worked for our favor though. It's allowed us to use lithium chemistries that would otherwise be locked up by american companies like A123, and it's allowed electric bikes to achieve market saturation in a decade. This "stealing" may make R&D less economically appealing, but it sure does keep the prices down.

In any case, you have a good track record, so we'd like to believe you. Unfortunately, all you offer is a straw man argument: "Lets focus on slandering 9c and the companies that sell them, and not the facts about my motor."

 

[spinningmagnets]

"who was first" seems to be relatively unimportant to the mass of customers. Bosch invented the hand-held electric drill in 1923 ( http://ezinearticles.com/?Power-Tools-History&id=976405 ) does that mean I should buy a Bosch drill instead of a different brand?

IMHO it would be best to promote your product by simply stating what you think is good about it...

 

[liveforphysics]

If I'm remembering everything correctly, Justin made 9C to disk cover protos long ago, then started offering the 9C disk version, and then as an awesome thing for his customers, he even modified the disk covers on his lathe to change the bearing depth/seating position so people with existing 9C hubs could just swap on a disk cover, as the stator/rotor is performance functionally identical between them.

But, he is such a humble laid back guy, I know he would just sit back and let anyone say anything they like.

 

[Toorbough ULL-Zeveigh]

that's what i found so particularly distasteful.
even tho terry was (primarily) targeting a different dealer, with this thread title he is tarring with a rather wide brush.
whether it was company B or Z or sigma-tau such wink-wink innuendo casting aspersions in Justin's direction that he's done anything inappropriate is just dirty, dirty, dirty.

 

[Jeremy Harris]

I'm still intrigued by the notion of, quote:

1. Thicker wire in the windings and the leads. This keeps the heat down and provides more torque, allowing for more range/power from battery.

The first point implies that torque is a function of wire gauge, which isn't true. Increasing the cross sectional area of copper in a given set of windings will lower winding resistance, but that in and of itself doesn't change the torque that the motor produces. Torque is a function of the fixed characteristics of the motor topology and design (rotor diameter, number of turns, magnet flux) and the current flowing through the windings. As current is controlled by the controller, rather than the motor, lowering the winding resistance just reduces motor losses, (which will keep the heat down) but it won't change the torque that it produces.


This quote also slightly bothers me:

4. Changed the outer ring (where the magnets are embedded) to a specific type of steel. This was an excellent upgrade as the motors have 5-6% less drag and about 50% more torque when under power

Getting 50% more torque from a motor by simply changing the magnet backing steel seems an absolutely massive improvement. It implies that the effective flux in the magnetic gap has increased by this amount, which is frankly close to being astounding if it's true. Even a relatively thin steel backing ring will contain maybe 95% plus of the magnetic flux, the implication of this claim is that the original ring was allowing around half the magnetic flux to escape its bounds, which just doesn't ring right to me. I'd love to see the flux measurements that you made when discovering this massive torque improvement, as they would prove once and for all just what a very significant technical advance you've made with this motor, or really just how poor the original motor was.

Jeremy

 

[dogman dan]

More torque, IF, you put more amps down that fatter wire? Gotta admit, the 9c wires are thin to be able to fit down the tiny hole. Another great reason to increase the bearing size, like heinzmann did. Want more, just drill a bigger hole for fat wiring. What's up with this still trying to fit wires down tiny axle holes? Give us a big bearing and there's plenty of room for the wires!

 

[Jeremy Harris]

More torque, IF, you put more amps down that fatter wire? Gotta admit, the 9c wires are thin to be able to fit down the tiny hole. Another great reason to increase the bearing size, like heinzmann did. Want more, just drill a bigger hole for fat wiring. What's up with this still trying to fit wires down tiny axle holes? Give us a big bearing and there's plenty of room for the wires!

I agree that increasing the current will yield more torque, but making the claim that just winding the thing with thicker wire increases torque is a bit misleading, especially as maximum torque is pretty much determined by the controller current limit, anyway.

I wholeheartedly agree about the wire hole size thing. I rewired a Crystalyte a couple of years ago and getting thick wires through the axle was a major pain, it took me three goes before I managed to get them all through with no damage.

Jeremy

 

[dogman dan]

True enough, the final torque would be limited by the winding at some point, not the wire size going into it. Any difference from the resistance of the skinnier wire would be small. Probobally would have been much better to not say torque at all. Maybe just saying fat wire makes running high wattage more convenient would be a much more accurate way to put it. Pretty common for people to say "more torque" when it's not more torque. But to the rider, a faster take off feels like more torque.

 

[oldpiper]

Pretty common for people to say "more torque" when it's not more torque. But to the rider, a faster take off feels like more torque.

Doesn't a faster takeoff mean more torque? You're feeding more power to the forward acceleration (F=ma, if I remember from so many years back), and the only way you're going to get it is by putting more torque to the wheels. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Cameron

 

[torker]

Pretty common for people to say "more torque" when it's not more torque. But to the rider, a faster take off feels like more torque.

Doesn't a faster takeoff mean more torque? You're feeding more power to the forward acceleration (F=ma, if I remember from so many years back), and the only way you're going to get it is by putting more torque to the wheels. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Cameron

It seems when talking about different windings that we are getting it wrong. It seems that you are not getting more torque but by changing how the motor is wound we are changing the torque curve. This makes it seems like more torque when it is just peak torque at a different rpm. Maybe at a more useful rpm. Of course I could be full of $hit

 

[johnrobholmes]

A slower wind will have a higher torque constant, so with an amp limited controller you can actually get greater torque with a slower wind.

Now if we talk about an amp unlimited system with negligible battery/ controller/ wire resistance- the faster motor will put more torque down and also produce more power all else equal.

 

[Ypedal]

Assuming this 10H motor is being sold as a " Legal " kit.. it can't be given much more than a 1000w peak to be within reason.. ( of course we can all overvolt and over amp . .. ) but as a vendor sold kit i don't see that being very wise..

all motors, be it an X5, clyte 4 series, 9C, ezee, WE, etc etc etc.. roughly put out equal pull at 1000w from a dead stop ( pick your voltage.. and run them all at the same power limit ) .

I canot.. in any way. see this motor putting out double the pull with the same amount of watts.. plain ridiculous.

Now, if we are having a motor melt down competition, with no regard for power limit, wich one can sustain and use the most power wins..... well that's a whole other ball of wax.

 

[torker]

A slower wind will have a higher torque constant, so with an amp limited controller you can actually get greater torque with a slower wind.

Now if we talk about an amp unlimited system with negligible battery/ controller/ wire resistance- the faster motor will put more torque down and also produce more power all else equal.

This I like. The reason I seem to like the slower wind so much maybe. Sorry getting OT

 

[Gordo]

More torque, IF, you put more amps down that fatter wire? Gotta admit, the 9c wires are thin to be able to fit down the tiny hole. Another great reason to increase the bearing size, like heinzmann did. Want more, just drill a bigger hole for fat wiring. What's up with this still trying to fit wires down tiny axle holes? Give us a big bearing and there's plenty of room for the wires!

Is the answer to this the fact that 10 million 350W hubmotors are used on Chinese bikes each year and only a dozen or two end up in the hands of 10KW lunatics who hang out here? They all are built to fit standard bicycle drop-outs. Trying to make a bicycle into a 60mph, 6 sec motorcycle dragster is fun, but hardly the fault of poor design by someone else, if the effort goes up in smoke. The solution of using fatter wires in shrink wrap instead of thick insulation helps. But if one starts with a 5KW scooter hub, it is easy and no smoke gets out.

 

[Jeremy Harris]

Well, we'll know for sure come the outcome of the dyno tests. Even a really poor quality dyno will be able to show a 50% torque difference between two motors at the same rpm and current.

I'll reserve judgement on the veracity of these claims by Terry until we have the outcome of the independent tests. They'll show one way or the other whether or not there have been some remarkable technical advances made here.

Jeremy

 

[Drunkskunk]

I wonder if Justin would be interested in dyno testing one of these. Of those of us who ordered one, who's the closest to him?

 

[liveforphysics]

A slower wind will have a higher torque constant, so with an amp limited controller you can actually get greater torque with a slower wind.

Now if we talk about an amp unlimited system with negligible battery/ controller/ wire resistance- the faster motor will put more torque down and also produce more power all else equal.

Remember, the motor never sees battery amps. If it's a phase-amp controller limit, then yes, more turns can effect torque output, otherwise has no effect.

Likewise, a 2-turn motor makes identical torque to a 20-turn motor if the copper fill is the same, and the input power is the same (regardless of the v*amps input to make that same power).

Example: 10v at 100amps into a controller (assuming no phase amp limiting) makes identical torque at x motor as 100v and 10amps into the very same motor. (one just has 10x the speed range). The reason is that the RMS phase currents would be identical between the two setups if the input power is equal, and the motor R/L is equal.

 

[BLUESTREAK]

TERRY you did it again, edit your post title and act like you never said anything bad about JASON at E-BIKES.You would make a good modern day politcian. some of them are always making outlandish statements and it's on their website and after thay are cought thay just go back and remove it from their website as if it had never happened. I consider JASON a friend and you still owe him an apology.

 

[bjosta]

Yepp, there is a lot of backtracking here...
The original post is quoted in Toorbough ULL-Zeveigh reply on the first page, it sure is quite another post entirely...
I think the next edit from Terry might read something like this:
Tittle: Hightekbikes 10H, why not?
Text:
The 9C motor is a good design but being released about two years ago can be improved. It was designed in the USA and performed quite well. The original retailer, who happened to be the designer, put a nice kit together and was quite successful with it. The price/performance ratio was good enough that two other companies tracked down the factory and started selling the same kit. The basic 9C design was re-worked and somewhat improved before taken to another factory. The latest design has some minor improvements over the old 9C. This new model is in it's forth revision and is possibly slightly better now being sold by us at Hightekbikes under the name 10H. Yes the 9C has a good reputation, and people on here rave about it but now you have another choice, and one that might have some improvements.
:wink: