Non balancing BMS

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Apr 30, 2023
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Iowa
So I ordered a battery from UPP , it is listed as having LG4800 ah cells. It is on its way now. Then I happened upon a post that talked about the BMS that UPP uses. Apparently it does not balance the cells. The poster said they told him it was an Xtra $20 to get the BMS that would balance the pack. I emailed UPP to double check since I had assumed ( yes , never do that ) that the BMS did that. Their response is that it would have to come from China , and not US stock and the shipping would be too expensive. So my question is what is going to happen to my battery when I charge it ? Am I stuck with a battery whose useful life is going to be dramatically reduced ? I need 3 batteries as I am making 3 TSDZ2 ebike conversions so my family can ride together. I can't afford to buy multiple batteries from GRIN or em3ev or some of the other known really good battery makers. It's not like I will be recharging them every day , we will be riding for fun, not commuting. In the end will it make that much of a difference for my situation.
 
Theoretically, when the battery gets far enough out of balance that the BMS disables discharge, you can rip it open, measure the voltage of the individual p-groups, and manually balance it. It's easy to find old 1S cell phone chargers which can be used to raise the voltage of a low p-group, and not difficult to wire other p-groups up to small test loads like light bulbs or resistors to lower the high ones.

Prior to reaching the point where the BMS disables the battery, you will experience reduced capacity, since charging will stop when the highest p-group reaches high voltage cut off and discharging will stop when the lowest p-group reaches low voltage cut off. So it's essentially impossible to fully charge all your cells.
 
Get a cheap balancing BMS from eBay and install it yourself. Or get an active balance board and use it in combination with your crappy battery non-management system.

If you don't have any kind of automatic cell balancing, it's on you not to run the battery low enough to kick it out of balance, and ideally you shouldn't charge to maximum voltage either. 4.2V/cell average, when the cells aren't balanced, means some cells are overcharged routinely. It's easier to tolerate some imbalance when you only charge the pack to 4.1 or 4.0 volts per cell.
 
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Any ballpark idea as to when it could get very out of balance ? I suppose lots of variables.
First...balance is just all the cells being at the same voltage at some particular state of charge (SoC). It can be a measure of how different the cell groups are in characteristics....but while you can fix balance by making all the voltages the same, you cannot fix the differences in characteristics--those only grow more different over time unless you replace all of the cells in the pack with matched-characteristic cells.

Whether your pack gets out of balance, and how long it will take, depends on what they built the pack out of. If it was one of the cheap packs, it's probably made of cheap non-matched cells with significantly-varying characteristics. That means that the groups made of those cells will probably also vary in characteristics (capacity, internal resistance, etc) from each other. That then means the charge and discharge process will not happen equally in every series group, and so the state of charge of each group will vary a bit on every cycle, adding up over time, unbalancing the cells.

What it really amounts to is that if they matched the cells (not a voltage thing despite what their sales people will try to tell you) then the pack will remain balanced without a BMS or anything else doing this for it because all the cells are the same and will all charge and discharge equally.

If they didn't match the cells, which is extremely likely, then the pack doesn't have the same capacity/etc in every cell or group of cells, so it can never remain balanced. A balancing BMS can make all the cells the same voltage at whatever SoC you've set it up to do that for (usually full charge), but it can't fix the underlying problem.


If you want to know if you will have a problem or not, measure all the cell groups when you get the pack, before you do anything at all with it--before it is charged or discharged, etc. Start a notebook with all the data by date/time/state of charge, etc., noting why each test was done, so later you can go thru it to troubleshoot if necessary.

If they are all exactly the same to at least hundredths of a volt, that's a good sign.

If they are not all identical, but many groups are the same as each other, then any groups that are different from the others are going to be problematic and grow worse over time.

If most or all of the groups are all different from each other, then the entire pack is going to be problematic, and grow worse over time.

If the pack isn't fully charged at this point, go ahead and do that. Then remeasure all the groups.

Once it's charged, do a discharge test on the bike/etc that it's intended to power, for as much of the pack's capacity as you can. Then remeasure all the groups.

Then recharge it to the same state of charge it started out as. (meaning, until whatever cell group you are monitoring voltage for during the recharge reaches the same voltage it was at when you did the initial measurements). Stop the charge there and remeasure all the groups.

If the cells have changed a lot in relative differences since the original test, they're not going to fare very well over time.

If they are identical in relative differences since the original test, it's a good sign that they are at least not going to get worse quickly.

That gives you a baseline to compare to as the pack ages over time, and lets you know what to expect from it.
 
In my experience. if you have uniform cells, and don't beat on them (run them down to LVC and run them near or over max current), they tend to discharge uniformly and stay in balance. If you run the cells hard, then you expose differences in discharge characteristics, cause some cells to deteriorate faster, and wind up with badly unbalanced packs.

I can see UPP's point in not using balance BMS. I've had several unbalanced batteries that I thought could be repaired by (a) manually getting all the cell groups to the same voltage and (b) using a balance BMS to keep them there. What I found was that the droopy cell groupss would still discharge faster than the others, and while the BMS could bring them back, I still might have a battery with a 30% loss in capacity, The only time a balance BMS helped me is when I also replaced the bad cell group.

Nonetheless, on my own batteries that I have built, I use a balance BMS,
 
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Thanks for the replies! I may just have to suck it up and buy at least 1 battery from somewhere like em3ev. Then I will know I have 1 good battery that will last. And hopefully the upp battery will last also.
 
Thanks for the replies! I may just have to suck it up and buy at least 1 battery from somewhere like em3ev. Then I will know I have 1 good battery that will last. And hopefully the upp battery will last also.
+1 on changing the bms' to one's that will balance your pack. IMO it is silly not to include one from the beginning. The cost of including a BMS that will balance is so marginal that it shouldn't even be a question in the manufacturing process.

:)
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Well, I ended up buying the other 2 batteries I need from em3ev. I guess I'll put in some overtime at work . I figure in the long run it will pay off and I'll have batteries that should (will) last .
 
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