Spring or air??

[ebike11]

Here is the cheap shock im replacing.

 

[madin88]

Nope. Go look at any race results and what forks are being used. Go look at any website that reviews and ranks forks. Air > coil. Show evidence to the contrary.

Yes thats true but thats probably because MTB or DH have other priorities.
Weight is one of the most important things with all bicylce parts, and that Air springs can be much easier tuned and adapted to the conditions of the race track.

Each has it's Pros and cons.

 

[marka-ee]

spring for me. I want the most plush ride possible and with a light weight vehicle like a bicycle the stiction factors in more that a heavier vehicle like a motorcycle. BTW, yes, 18 wheelers use air springs, but they are air bags made by Goodyear and others , no stiction and no sliding seals either.
I want linkage design front forks with a spring, but they are rare and cost $1500.
You can't judge what is really the best by looking at what pro riders use. They are sponsored and heavily controlled by manufacturers whose business model dictates them to show marketable and profitable wares. The bike industry is sadly a 'fashion' hardware industry as well. Better to sell limited life products and pump them with rad looking photos with 'big air' to promote to Joe biker.

 

[MadRhino]

There are high stiction spring forks, and low stiction air forks. There are some spring forks that are a sh*t ride, and air forks that are giving wonderful tuning and handling. From very cheap to very expansive, there is a world of differences. Those that had spent the big bucks for the best freeride forks in early 2000’s, forks that are still riding today and much better than the average 700$ brand new modern forks, know what I mean. Yes, spring forks work better, but that is a general statement. A cheap spring fork is better than a cheap air fork, that is true. Expansive air or spring forks are so close together that both can have an advantage over the other depending of the terrain.

Modern racing forks are exactly the same, wether they have a coil spring or a gas cartridge inside, and they change from spring to air at will. Big jumps are not common practice, and trails are nicer every year, good reasons to like air suspension in many mountain trails. I ride both and like both, only at different places.

Linkage forks have problems too: they get some slack and noise with wear, require frequent maintenance and they are complicated to fine tune. 1500$ is not a lot of money for a racing fork, but when looking at what is available on the market for that cost, you can find better than a linkage fork. They are bringing to the front, the high suspension maintenance of the rear.

 

[DogDipstick]

Rear shocks? I have blown out two cheapos. With the abuse from a hub motor, I do not want to put any real chunk of $$ there. I have a Risse, for a mid drive bike.. but.. Hub? Hub motor beating = cheapo for me.

( Cheapo coil & oil, rebound and preload only. )

 

[marka-ee]

Funny how nobody rates forks or shocks for stiction in any way. Should be listed in the specs. Anything that can't be expressed in numbers is mere opinion, my chem. teacher used to say.

 

[madin88]

You can't judge what is really the best by looking at what pro riders use. They are sponsored and heavily controlled by manufacturers whose business model dictates them to show marketable and profitable wares. The bike industry is sadly a 'fashion' hardware industry as well. Better to sell limited life products and pump them with rad looking photos with 'big air' to promote to Joe biker.

Sad but true.
1% improvement to previous model and 99% marketing bla

 

[MadRhino]

Funny how nobody rates forks or shocks for stiction in any way. Should be listed in the specs. Anything that can't be expressed in numbers is mere opinion, my chem. teacher used to say.

Because it is not an important factor among forks of the same class. When we choose to ride air forks, we know that low stiction that compares with coil spring is expansive. If we choose the cheaper spring version of a racing fork, it is not for lower stiction because they have the same stanchions and seals. It is not for weight because coil springs used in racing forks are about the same weight as air cartridges and the difference is only in the amount of oil. The air spring cartridge is just different. It does tune to almost infinite, it is bottomless, and offers instant remote tuning options while riding. That is why we buy a 1000$ cartridge to replace the coil spring in a racing fork.

When we choose cheap air forks, we know that they are slower to react than springs but they are close to the weight of expansive racing forks for a fraction of the cost. It is for the weight that we choose them, despite the fact that their stanchions are air containers with much tighter seals than spring forks. We compromise function for light weight. If we choose a cheap spring fork, it is because their action is close to expansive forks for a fraction of the cost, only they have limited tuning options, heavier weight, and shorter life expectation.

Bottoming cheap forks is destructive, because they are not made with the same resistance and protections. Cheap air forks can bottom when you bust a seal, then they are damaged for good. Expansive air forks are bottomless and low stiction because their seals are not holding air. All springs can bottom of course, but cheap spring forks can only bottom a few times before irreversible damage, while expansive spring forks can bottom many times in a riding day and still be tuned as new tomorrow.

As for sponsoring, only amateur riders will accept to compromise their chances of winning for a sponsor. All competitive racing teams tend to use the same components because they are the best, and winning teams don’t need the money from sponsors. When a bike manufacturer who is making a 15k$ racing bike for the season after a few million $ in R&D, he chooses the components to make it win, and their racing crew is free to experiment, tune, replace, mod, whatever they want to gain a fraction of a second. They are telling the components manufacturers what they want to use and improve, not the other way around.

 

[marka-ee]

Seals holding back air pressure will have more static friction. Otherwise the air would just hiss right out. This is why people generally agree that spring forks are more sensitive. I would gladly have a near stiction free fork that only has 1 inch travel, for my street riding. Cannondale head shock was pretty good for plush ride as they used roller bearings around a square rod. The new linkage/lever spring forks are very promising as well, with a side effect of no dive during braking. Sadly they look weird to many and don't signal 'I'm a big boy now MX motorcycle forks'.
On pro teams : I'd like to see them peel off/remove the logos then. No branding. Keep it secret.

 

[markz]

Better to sell limited life products and pump them with rad looking photos with 'big air' to promote

Many people fail to realize that. Companies pump out whatever they can for a quick sale and profit margin on the "latest and greatest."

 

[MadRhino]

On pro teams : I'd like to see them peel off/remove the logos then. No branding. Keep it secret.

Most racing teams are covering with their own scheme stickers. But as I have said, most are using the same components, easy to recognize. The ‘bike fashion’ is not in top racing components, it is in imitations that are sold many times their true value because they have the looks of pro racing.

 

[Chalo]

Better to sell limited life products and pump them with rad looking photos with 'big air' to promote

Many people fail to realize that. Companies pump out whatever they can for a quick sale and profit margin on the "latest and greatest."

True. What I see as a bike technician is mostly two kinds of bikes. Some are utterly normal to fix when they're 20 years old. These were the real bikes all along.

Then there are the ones that are obsolete/unserviceable/unsupported after 20 years, which are the bikes that were garbage level toys from day one. But they were much more expensive originally, compared to real bikes that still work.

If you're lucky, sometimes all it takes to bring an older bike back from uselessness and oblivion is to take off the "spring or air??" fork and replace with a unit made from a single piece of steel. Rear shock frames usually can't be made satisfactory that way-- though I have gotten a chuckle upon seeing a rear suspension frame repaired by substituting a block of wood for the shock.

 

[amberwolf]

Rear shock frames usually can't be made satisfactory that way-- though I have gotten a chuckle upon seeing a rear suspension frame repaired by substituting a block of wood for the shock.

Or a bunch of slices of car/truck tire sandwiched together between the mounting points. I guess that's *slightly* more suspension than a solid connection. :lol:

 

[MadRhino]

Good forks and shocks are many on the used market. I find much better to pay 150$ for an old 600$ shock, than 89$ for an absolute piece of new Chinese crap, even if I soon have to spend 35$ and an hour to rebuild it as new.

I have bought old racing forks for 400$ that were in perfect working order just like they were when new and worth 2500$ back then. And, they lasted longer than a brand new 400$ fork.

 

[marka-ee]

What's a good used spring fork to look for, that has a chance of providing a nice plush road ride ? I only need 1" travel, really.

 

[MadRhino]

If you need one inch of travel, don’t need a suspension. There is no 1’’ travel suspension frame available anywhere. Buy a suspension seat post, use softer tires, softer saddle, tune your riding position...

 

[marka-ee]

What I was saying is 1" would be enough for me, not that I need exactly 1" travel. I'm looking for my Recumbent bike. The rear suspension takes some of the road bumps out, but the front needs something too. My non electric Cannondale silk road *does* have about 1" travel, and it helps greatly. Headshock. Low stiction. I look at it this way: The roads I travel bumps are 99% smaller than 1/2" bumps and defects to worry about. Already have 2" fat tires. I need something to deal with that, making a more plush ride for my 'flying carpet' E-recumbent. I'd welcome something used to save money. Or maybe I'll CAD something linkage/spring based in Solidworks, refine with stress testing/FEA and TIG it up.