TylerDurden
100 GW
Suggestion:
Scrap the lead.
Use NiCd:
cheap
reliable
long-life
lighter
smaller
scale-able
Scrap the lead.
Use NiCd:
cheap
reliable
long-life
lighter
smaller
scale-able
Starting an e-bike company - let's figure out the specs :)
- Thread starter wiseleo
- Start date
TylerDurden
100 GW
Consider that thousands of ebikes sold here in the USA have all had a fatal flaw: SLA.wiseleo said:
If they were sold with NiCd, they'd still be on the road and ebikes could be huge already.
More potential for your success, I rekon.
MidniteTweeker
100 W
- Joined
- May 16, 2008
- Messages
- 121
Nothing about the bike or its components, but find yourself a partner who will both complement, challenge and counterbalance your enthusiasm. Someone who will ask hard questions and won't let you off the hook with easy answers. You know, like "What will you do if an entire shipment of bikes develops frame cracks because of ........?" Think poisonous toothpaste, poisonous pet food, lead paint on toys, etc. Plan how you will prevent this from happening, and how you'll respond when it does.
It sounds like you're a positive sorter. If so, partner with someone who's negative.
MT
It sounds like you're a positive sorter. If so, partner with someone who's negative.
MT
MidniteTweeker said:
Tweeker, I will disagree with you and I'll tell you why. I am a realist with an uncanny ability to adapt to adverse situations. I once lived without lights for 6 months because I re-prioritized that bill in light of other bills. At the end 6 months, when I had more success, I simply paid the bill with new earnings and went back to a normal lifestyle.
That partner would be responsible for compliance testing and so forth. I am interested in a quality product. That's why I am spending time now figuring out what would be the ideal options. I do ask the hard questions all the time. My money is at risk.
Having someone on the board who is negative about the success is really not helpful. Assuming my bikes are CPSC compliant, the biggest challenge is making sure the battery packs are safe. There is sufficient profit margin to take care of any recalls.
Contingency planning for "what if" scenarios seems to be what concerns you. I do appreciate that concern, however it is misplaced. Let's get back to bike-building.
Miles said:Phase out date for NiCd in e.u. was 1 July this year, not sure what the latest is...
Still using my NiCd packs
There are not that many suppliers of NiCd, but they still exist. I'll do some market testing and investigate whether there is a global end of life period.
The thing is, I want to make this very affordable. An upgrade will virtually sell itself, but it'll get a person out of the car now. Looking outside the e-bike community, people are likely to be more like me - I needed something that was better than a 45 minute walk.
This decision doesn't need to happen today anyway.
Assuming the power container is universal, which is one of my key points, the chemistry inside can be any.
PedalingBiped
100 W
You want a "turn-key" product that's not too cheap.
The Bicycle industry is all about components.
You should be able to buy a "cheap" folding bike and then the electric components.
I think you could come up with your own controller that would tie everything together.
make everything "plug and play"
There are a lot of high quality folding bikes out there so if someone wanted to update, your kit could be easily transfered to their own bike.
The smaller the wheel, more torque - less speed, the larger the wheel, more speed - less torque.
youtube search "folding bike"
Gieko bike $159 "all steel, rolls when folded"
http://ridethisbike.com/folding_bikes.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmYo9XL32Es
bike friday $1000
http://www.bikefriday.com
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQscBxx7wLE
A nice video at http://www.ativsolutions.com (San Diego) has half the elements you could put in your own commercial.
My idea for a marketing ploy would be to hire 50 people or more that would ride your bike to the train station, board, travel to the next station and get off and bike back to the original station.
If you could get 5 to 10 people boarding every train at one station for a few hours ...
The Bicycle industry is all about components.
You should be able to buy a "cheap" folding bike and then the electric components.
I think you could come up with your own controller that would tie everything together.
make everything "plug and play"
There are a lot of high quality folding bikes out there so if someone wanted to update, your kit could be easily transfered to their own bike.
The smaller the wheel, more torque - less speed, the larger the wheel, more speed - less torque.
youtube search "folding bike"
Gieko bike $159 "all steel, rolls when folded"
http://ridethisbike.com/folding_bikes.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmYo9XL32Es
bike friday $1000
http://www.bikefriday.com
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQscBxx7wLE
A nice video at http://www.ativsolutions.com (San Diego) has half the elements you could put in your own commercial.
My idea for a marketing ploy would be to hire 50 people or more that would ride your bike to the train station, board, travel to the next station and get off and bike back to the original station.
If you could get 5 to 10 people boarding every train at one station for a few hours ...
PedalingBiped said:
Hi pedaling,
That is an interesting idea. Thank you.
I had a variation of it that was a bit more obvious. My idea is to have some hot models riding around assigned areas in my corporate colors etc. Will probably catch media attention pretty quickly.I am not sure I want to get on the nerves of station agents though, but it could be a fun setting for a commercial.
It would be less expensive overall to assemble all components in China. Additionally, less duty would be payable. It all boils down to having good project management. I am talking to some people in China. I'd rather pre-sell a container load and simply have buyers ride them away after spending 30 min/bike to assemble.
The $159 bike uses 16" wheels. You'll notice that the 20" bikes are significantly more expensive. $349 was the cheapest on that page.
We'll have DIY kits available as well, but the primary customer is not a tinkerer. I am making a mass-market product without forgetting enthusiasts as I am one as well.
I wonder if there is scope for long term hire ? With some sort of roll in, roll out changeover type servicing deal where your user would bring in their bike, keep their battery module and fit it to another bike that is ready to go and leave.
You have already talked about free servicings, think of this as the premium, no waiting servicing package .
Other thoughts, is it worth doing something like the cordless power tools where they have a monitor chip inside each battery and can poll the monitor for status information. I see the energy storage system as being the biggest single cost and maybe the highest risk. In the long term it might be very handy to be able to find out exactally how a pack has been treated over it's life.
You have already talked about free servicings, think of this as the premium, no waiting servicing package .
Other thoughts, is it worth doing something like the cordless power tools where they have a monitor chip inside each battery and can poll the monitor for status information. I see the energy storage system as being the biggest single cost and maybe the highest risk. In the long term it might be very handy to be able to find out exactally how a pack has been treated over it's life.
Pete said:
I just got my paws on something pretty amazing. Posted it on http://www.FoldEBike.com.
14" rear tire, 12" front tire, 12mph, weighs less than 21 lbs with battery, and runs for 20 miles. Not necessarily a commuter, but probably will be the hottest thing to hit a college campus. Would finance the commuter bikes part of the business nicely. I am discussing if I can make it be faster.
By the way, I also see BionX kits if anyone is interested. Don't know what they are sold for, but I can get them for a hundreds less than what I see posted online from a cursory search.
The monitoring chip is an interesting idea that hasn't occurred to me. Thank you very much. I'll talk to the suppliers. It totally makes sense for the expensive batteries.
I like your idea about getting a different rolling chassis. Very cool.
Miles said:Leo,
A certain amount of hype is creeping into your webpage....
Great, I'll correct it. It was a rough estimate. I'll post an actual ratio shortly. Definitely not intentional
A sales letter tends to be hype-inducing. I am still working on its copy. This is basically early start to give Google and the like enough time to start aging the site properly.
safe
1 GW
- Joined
- Dec 22, 2006
- Messages
- 5,681
Practicality vs Sport
It's good to watch the logic of someone who wants to build an electric bike and is just fishing for the conventional wisdom about what it should look like. Fechter said it right early on, the Chinese have mostly figured out what the plain vanilla electric bike built for practicality is going to look like and what it's price point will be. In my opinion you need to demonstrate the American trait for outrageous inventiveness and boldness and build something that truly captures peoples imaginations.
If you investigate my "genre" of electric bicycle "road racers" and see some potential in such an extreme vision maybe you could use the email facility (here) and we could talk. One day (as soon as I've developed my prototypes and know what really is great through testing) I'm going to need guys like you to build it.
You also need to look at Recumpence's RC motor build because I firmly believe that he's tapped into the future of motor configurations.
It's good to watch the logic of someone who wants to build an electric bike and is just fishing for the conventional wisdom about what it should look like. Fechter said it right early on, the Chinese have mostly figured out what the plain vanilla electric bike built for practicality is going to look like and what it's price point will be. In my opinion you need to demonstrate the American trait for outrageous inventiveness and boldness and build something that truly captures peoples imaginations.
If you investigate my "genre" of electric bicycle "road racers" and see some potential in such an extreme vision maybe you could use the email facility (here) and we could talk. One day (as soon as I've developed my prototypes and know what really is great through testing) I'm going to need guys like you to build it.
You also need to look at Recumpence's RC motor build because I firmly believe that he's tapped into the future of motor configurations.
EcoForumZ
10 W
- Joined
- May 20, 2008
- Messages
- 83
wiseleo said:Hi everyone,
So I like my new e-bike enough to want to open the floodgates here in US.
My particular bike is nothing special (couldn't climb the last few feet uphill as the battery was dead...) and I bought it as just something to have in the meantime while I figure out something more permanent, but it gets me from train station (BART) to my house in 8-10 minutes vs. a 45-minute walk uphill, including waiting at all red lights. That puts a BIG smile on my face!
I think the market is ripe for an affordable foldable e-bike. Folding bikes are allowed on all transit agencies in Bay Area during rush hour whereas full-size bikes are either not allowed or limited to the two external bike racks. Further, they are not subject to Caltrain's 32-bike limit.
My preliminary specs are still somewhat vague.
Foldable frame
Enclosed chain - I want to ensure we don't create mess
20" or smaller tires - we are trying to create something inobtrusive that can be taken on any transit without any questions. 26" won't do :lol:
36V with choice of power elements from SLA to Lifepo4 with 24V available for those who have no hills or money and 48V for those who have more of both - basically an a-la-carte choice, obviously affects the next couple of points
about 20mph electronically limited speed (with an unmarked jumper to remove the limit, perhaps...)
About 20 miles range
Able to roll while folded
Possibly a range of rear gears
large front sprocket - so you can actually keep up with the motor vs. having a useless tiny sprocket that doesn't help beyond 8mph.
It'll be sourced from China since they have this problem solved long ago.
My expertise is in marketing, so hopefully we can find/manufacture something that's inexpensive and would free up our overburdened parking lots at mass transit stations. I kid you not, it can take me 30 minutes to park at some of these places, which is one of many reasons why I got my e-bike.
As far as branding is concerned, I might brand it Fold-E-Bike or something similar. There are too many possibilities. And yeah, I do own foldebike.com and foldingebike.com
Leo
Just wanted to give you a heads up that ezip already makes a inexpensive folding bike that they sell at walmart for $598 see the link below. It is very hard to compete with ezip and izip bike prices but if you can find a way to do it then go for it.
http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=5684196
EcoForumZ said:
Hi EcoForumZ,
I am well aware of the ezip.
There are several ways to compete effectively in the marketplace.
1. Marketing
2. Features
3. Style
4. Price
That is overly simplified, but price is not the only consideration.
The Ezip is a 26" SLA-powered bike. That means it's huge and heavy. I had a full-size folding bike, which subsequently got stolen, and it's difficult to manage while folded. The profit margin that Wal-mart has on that bike would make you cringe. It is in excess of 100%.
Competing solely on price is the last resort for fully matured markets. US really has no realistic mass market yet, so I can easily compete on other points. I can argue that a 26" MTB frame is unwieldy when folded, for example. Which is a style argument.
I am coming across a lot of innovation in my search for suppliers.
safe said:
I am watching that thread with great interest.
Serving niche markets is great, but, if you want to make a splash on the market, a hot product that everyone wants for Christmas is really the way to go.
I will certainly check out your design threads.
While I see lots of vanilla bikes, I also occasionally come across some really nice and unique-looking designs.
EcoForumZ
10 W
- Joined
- May 20, 2008
- Messages
- 83
wiseleo said:EcoForumZ said:
Hi EcoForumZ,
I am well aware of the ezip.
There are several ways to compete effectively in the marketplace.
1. Marketing
2. Features
3. Style
4. Price
That is overly simplified, but price is not the only consideration.
The Ezip is a 26" SLA-powered bike. That means it's huge and heavy. I had a full-size folding bike, which subsequently got stolen, and it's difficult to manage while folded. The profit margin that Wal-mart has on that bike would make you cringe. It is in excess of 100%.
Competing solely on price is the last resort for fully matured markets. US really has no realistic mass market yet, so I can easily compete on other points. I can argue that a 26" MTB frame is unwieldy when folded, for example. Which is a style argument.
I am coming across a lot of innovation in my search for suppliers.
Sounds like you have done your research. And just for the record I was not trying to talk you out of anything just wanted to make sure you took them into consideration.
Good luck to you!
sharkmobil
10 W
Here is a response from one of the the I-Zip users/Walmart customers. I'd study it in great detail, as Walmart can afford to take back the bike.
I think you stress marketing a bit too much. Good tools market themselves. Look at Dewalt - Hilti spent a fortune trying to "outmarket" them.
I would not buy a bike because some hot chick rides it with the LCD screen attached to her butt on BART. I would definitely buy it if I test-rode it and it gave me the acceleration, the reliability and the range I could not get from any other bike or a scooter. Others might be looking for comfort and ease-of-use. My point is, the initial "eye candy" shock will last for 100-200 ... 1000 units. Then you'll be dealing with the usability issues and a word of the mouth. I gathered that you want to be in it for the long haul and for that my friend you need QUALITY. A quality in design, manufacturing and in service. Basically, I'd stop looking in China for your components. You are pitting three opposite things against each other - low cost, low maintenance and high performance. I'd look in Latin America or Eastern Europe for manufacturing, at least they have a history of making well engineered products on the cheap.
Just my .02
I think you stress marketing a bit too much. Good tools market themselves. Look at Dewalt - Hilti spent a fortune trying to "outmarket" them.
I would not buy a bike because some hot chick rides it with the LCD screen attached to her butt on BART. I would definitely buy it if I test-rode it and it gave me the acceleration, the reliability and the range I could not get from any other bike or a scooter. Others might be looking for comfort and ease-of-use. My point is, the initial "eye candy" shock will last for 100-200 ... 1000 units. Then you'll be dealing with the usability issues and a word of the mouth. I gathered that you want to be in it for the long haul and for that my friend you need QUALITY. A quality in design, manufacturing and in service. Basically, I'd stop looking in China for your components. You are pitting three opposite things against each other - low cost, low maintenance and high performance. I'd look in Latin America or Eastern Europe for manufacturing, at least they have a history of making well engineered products on the cheap.
Just my .02
sharkmobil said:
Hi Shark,
I agree with you on quality issues. Whatever product I wind up bringing to market will be tested pretty thoroughly as getting enough orders for the initial shipment will be tricky. Repair costs are higher than simply going with higher quality components. If my bill of materials components are robust enough (as you know, there are real Shimano components and junk Shimano components, for example), the point of assembly should matter less.
Speaking of Hilti - they are tools used to conceal murders
Check out this clever product placement of Hilti vs. DeWalt in one of my favorite shows. http://dreadegos.com/serendipity/index.php?/archives/156-The-Wire-Boys-of-Summer.htmlEye candy is fun, but I am going to rely on referrals a lot more with a direct incentive to customers.
As I am originally from Eastern Europe, I am not so sure I'd trust our manufacturing. I'd been to our factories and I doubt they changed all that much in the last 15 years as far as work ethics are concerned.
Thank you.
