Starting an e-bike company - let's figure out the specs :)

Wiseleo, my company is currently selling a folding ebike that meets most of your requirements. You can see it on our website: http://www.hightekbikes.com. You and anyone else in the SF bay area is welcome to come by our retail showroom in Rohnert Park to check it out. I started my research 3 years ago and started the company 2 years ago. I can give you some advice on your endeavor, first on the list would be to raise 50 grand. You are on the right track, and the timing is right. Our company has been flying under the radar doing alot of R&D, but now that the convergence is happening we will become more visable. I envision Northern California becoming a center for e-vehicles and plan on promoting it. You would be surprised how many garage operations there are in the area. Welcome and good luck.
 

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HTB_Terry said:
Wiseleo, my company is currently selling a folding ebike that meets most of your requirements. You can see it on our website: http://www.hightekbikes.com. You and anyone else in the SF bay area is welcome to come by our retail showroom in Rohnert Park to check it out. I started my research 3 years ago and started the company 2 years ago. I can give you some advice on your endeavor, first on the list would be to raise 50 grand. You are on the right track, and the timing is right. Our company has been flying under the radar doing alot of R&D, but now that the convergence is happening we will become more visable. I envision Northern California becoming a center for e-vehicles and plan on promoting it. You would be surprised how many garage operations there are in the area. Welcome and good luck.
Click to expand...

Hi Terry,

That is a neat bike, and I wish you to sell lots of them, but it is not quite what I want. :)
 
Hey,

Just having someone in the bay area who keeps basic parts (throttles, powerpoles, etc) in stock would make me happy.
 
lookingelectric said:
Hey,

Just having someone in the bay area who keeps basic parts (throttles, powerpoles, etc) in stock would make me happy.
Click to expand...

Hi Looking,

That's a good idea. Are there any particular parts you have in mind?
 
A Crowded Field?

I just have a feeling that besides WalMart and others there are going to be a lot of basic pragmatic entry level bikes available to people in the near future. If you are interested in making money you need to focus on the manufacturing side to get your costs down and simply produce a product that falls into the more or less generic foldable bike pattern. (they are all more or less the same idea with slight variations) Given how prices have gone most of the cheap bikes will be built in China.

The other approach would be to invent your own genre (my idea) and/or go upwards into the more exotic material and go after the high end customer.

...looking backwards at the history of mountain bikes I can recall first dreaming up the suspension design (I even had dreamed of the air shock idea) and many of the other things that were inevitable to come. Things arrived as expensive products first and then the prices came down and down and down until now the entry level mountain bikes at WalMart are not all that bad for $300. (nothing you would race with, but for casual riders it's not bad)

There will be some WILD ideas for electric bikes in the future because the addition of extra power allows riding styles and bike designs that were impractical on pedal only bikes. I can imagine BMX style trick bikes, high speed downhill mountain bikes and road racer type street bikes to name a few.

So it really comes down to what "turf" you want to claim. It's a little like the "gold rush" in that whoever stakes their claim first gets to mine it, but as with the "gold rush" you need to realize that most people will fail. In some ways if you can get a specialized niche you are in a "safer" place because you will be facing less competition initially.
 
Safe, "first mover advantage" is the term you are describing.

The trouble with mass production is that you want to aim for the most profitable segments first. Dirt cheap bikes won't make you a lot of money. You can transition to that later after you get things started and get some cash flow, unless you have the funding, expertise, and distribution to jump right in.
 
safe said:
A Crowded Field?

I just have a feeling that besides WalMart and others there are going to be a lot of basic pragmatic entry level bikes available to people in the near future. If you are interested in making money you need to focus on the manufacturing side to get your costs down and simply produce a product that falls into the more or less generic foldable bike pattern. (they are all more or less the same idea with slight variations) Given how prices have gone most of the cheap bikes will be built in China.

The other approach would be to invent your own genre (my idea) and/or go upwards into the more exotic material and go after the high end customer.
Click to expand...

Wal-mart and others may well have these products. That does not mean they are doing an adequate job of promotion. The absolutely generic bikes simply bore me. There are a couple of models that I like. I am pretty much done selecting my ultralight, midrange, and high end folding models.

Then there's also the service aspect and the quality of parts. I am willing to make less money if I put higher quality components in the bike or choose a better design. Wal-mart uses a different approach.
 
fitek said:
Safe, "first mover advantage" is the term you are describing.

The trouble with mass production is that you want to aim for the most profitable segments first. Dirt cheap bikes won't make you a lot of money. You can transition to that later after you get things started and get some cash flow, unless you have the funding, expertise, and distribution to jump right in.
Click to expand...

Hi Fitek,

That is true unless you have a product that is dirt-cheap for you, but perceived as expensive by the target market. In the e-bike world, that would be driven by battery technologies.

It looks like the specs have been figured out at this point. :)
 
A bit of everything.

If you're assembling bikes from parts onsite, you'll have a few more than you need of everything associated with a build around. It doesnt have to be packaged, just available at a price similar to what is found online.

wiseleo said:
lookingelectric said:
Hey,

Just having someone in the bay area who keeps basic parts (throttles, powerpoles, etc) in stock would make me happy.
Click to expand...

Hi Looking,

That's a good idea. Are there any particular parts you have in mind?
Click to expand...
 
If you really want to differentiate your company, then come up with a bullet proof design that is durable enough to come with a 3yr/30,000 mile limited warranty. The "limited" part would cover you with regard to the batts, but at several points in getting started the literature needs to include very strong warnings about what kills battery life along with steps to take to ensure maximum battery life...Average people are clueless about batts, and it's the one weak point in any ebike for anyone not armed with thorough info about battery care.

John
 
One thing to consider when choosing a folding bicycle - at least in my mind - is the white-collar workers who would need to commute in some sort of business attire. One thing that turns me off in using a bicycle in this manner is having to deal the chain. You don't want to show up at the office with grease all over your pants. For this reason, I would consider a shaft drive folding bicycle. I think that most people would agree that shaft drives are less efficient than chain drives. However, when you are throwing a motor into the mix, that issue becomes moot. For this application, "clean" is the operative word.......

http://www.dynamicbicycles.com/buy/Bikes.php?prodid=60#

dl95200.jpg
 
Miles,
That chainglider has to come with a friction penalty that is likely to tip the efficiency scale toward a shaft, since a typical dirty chain and gears tips that scale far enough. I'm with Michael and throw my vote in for a shaft drive, or maybe even a kevlar belt drive. Either one may result in some useful spare parts availability for us DIYers.
 
Of course, another option for train commuting is the good-ole stand up scooter. I've been riding a Goped ESR (highly modified) for a few years now, and it's a wonderful ride. Their latest version has full suspension, and they are now beta testing lithium batteries for greater range (estimated at around 30 miles with four, 24V 8AH packs). Folds nicely, and has an optional seat.

http://www.goped.com/Products/ESR750Hover/default.asp

Hover_front.jpg
prod-thumb-hoverseat.jpg
 
John,

The Chainglider is a simple solution for an existing bike.

Chainrings and sprockets for the new Gates 11mm pitch Carbon belts are starting to become available now. So, that will be a realistic alternative.
 
lookingelectric said:
A bit of everything.

If you're assembling bikes from parts onsite, you'll have a few more than you need of everything associated with a build around. It doesnt have to be packaged, just available at a price similar to what is found online.

wiseleo said:
lookingelectric said:
Hey,

Just having someone in the bay area who keeps basic parts (throttles, powerpoles, etc) in stock would make me happy.
Click to expand...

Hi Looking,

That's a good idea. Are there any particular parts you have in mind?
Click to expand...
Click to expand...

I am currently planning to import complete units rather than piles of parts. The primary reason for that is safety certification of the products. In order to do this right on the scale I envision, gray market approach won't work. That means I need to get the bikes tested at least to CPSC standards. I already talked to CPSC.

There would be ample spare parts as we ramp things up. As the parts are basically bolt-on upgrades to your typical bike frame, you should be able to use them in your projects anyway.
 
John in CR said:
If you really want to differentiate your company, then come up with a bullet proof design that is durable enough to come with a 3yr/30,000 mile limited warranty. The "limited" part would cover you with regard to the batts, but at several points in getting started the literature needs to include very strong warnings about what kills battery life along with steps to take to ensure maximum battery life...Average people are clueless about batts, and it's the one weak point in any ebike for anyone not armed with thorough info about battery care.

John
Click to expand...

Hi John,

That's already been done. This stuff is mainstream in other countries. On my business card it states "free lifetime service". Warranties are annoying with all the rules. I'd rather give a customer a free tuneup every few months than have them ride an uncalibrated bike that ultimately shortens the lifetime of the product. I may also shop for a premium charger, if that makes sense in terms of battery lifetime. That costs less in the long run. If we replace blown inner tubes, for example, the wholesale cost of that is rather negligible, but the customer goodwill value is very high.

However, you brought up a very good point about the battery primer. Thanks for that.

I am thinking more along the lines of Apple's perceived level of service - no headaches. Brake adjustments, battery testing, inner tube replacement etc.

That is possible if the company becomes pretty big, but not if the sales are low. :) I am not greedy. I want people out of their cars.
 
michaelplogue said:
One thing to consider when choosing a folding bicycle - at least in my mind - is the white-collar workers who would need to commute in some sort of business attire. One thing that turns me off in using a bicycle in this manner is having to deal the chain. You don't want to show up at the office with grease all over your pants. For this reason, I would consider a shaft drive folding bicycle. I think that most people would agree that shaft drives are less efficient than chain drives. However, when you are throwing a motor into the mix, that issue becomes moot. For this application, "clean" is the operative word.......

http://www.dynamicbicycles.com/buy/Bikes.php?prodid=60#

dl95200.jpg
Click to expand...

I am in complete agreement with you here and chain cleanliness was in fact one of my top concerns.

I am specifying enclosed chain. In fact, I have a chainless model on my list as well. It's a very futuristic looking design. You can't see the battery. I ride my e-bike in slacks and take no precautions. The design of my personal e-bike is sufficient to avoid all contact with the chain. Then again, I don't speed the pedals much.

Efficiency can be debated, with a disconnected clutch, a shaft-driven e-bike will ride like a normal bike. As you know, riding an e-bike with power off is a bit more work than normal. :)
 
Miles said:
You might be interested in this, Michael:
http://www.amba-marketing.com/products.php?cid=81&pid=671
Click to expand...

That's pretty cool!

I am sure its wholesale cost is a lot more reasonable. :)
 
michaelplogue said:
Of course, another option for train commuting is the good-ole stand up scooter. I've been riding a Goped ESR (highly modified) for a few years now, and it's a wonderful ride. Their latest version has full suspension, and they are now beta testing lithium batteries for greater range (estimated at around 30 miles with four, 24V 8AH packs). Folds nicely, and has an optional seat.

http://www.goped.com/Products/ESR750Hover/default.asp

Hover_front.jpg
prod-thumb-hoverseat.jpg
Click to expand...

Expensive (MSRP $1099 for SLA model). Expect a few hundred extra for the lifepo4?

According to my research, yes it would be legal to ride the ESR and it's an excellent option. http://www.chp.ca.gov/html/motors.html - California regulations for EVs.

I expect my folding bikes to cost less and deliver more value. :)

Psychologically, I think it would be easier to shift someone's mind toward getting a bike rather than a scooter. I originally wanted to purchase a Go-ped, but then I started looking into bikes.

I am happy that you are enjoying your ESR. The more options we have for clean commuting, the better off this planet is. :)
 
Ok, so I just finished scanning the posts, and as a person who has built 4 seperate e-bikes, each one getting closer to the specs that I would like, I can say that, while price is an issue, the biggest issue is quality, speed, weight and storage. I know you have several "upgradable" bikes, but my recommendation is a purchase or credit program that allows users to purchase bikes at a higher price and pay over time.

In my experience, a $1500 e-Bike is more than 3 times better than a $500 e-Bike, and a $3000 e-Bike is much better than a $1500 e-Bike.

I don't know what you are looking at for price, but the lowest I can see for a decent bike with any kind of profit margin is $1200-1500, as an absolute minimum. Selling a bike for $800 or less will leave the customer dissatisfied and they will never buy another e-Bike.

SLA, to be perfectly honest, is not really an option for anyone using their bike outside of their neighborhood. NiMH is an option, but lithium ion are the best option.

Finally, I wasn't able to decipher how solid your plans are for the bike design itself. With several of these designs you will either need to use:

1: A very low-power front hub motor
2: A rear hub motor

The weight of a higher power hub motor in a front wheel is a huge issue. I am not sure what you are looking at for top speed (12 mph? 18 mph? 35 mph?), but at any speed above 15 mph with a front hub motor, turning is an issue. Also, with 20 inch wheels you have an issue with a higher center of gravity, another reason to limit speed...

If you do limit speed to about 12-15 mph you can get your lithium battery very cheap. With a decent quality motor (I find crystalyte to actually be a very high quality motor for its price--but I live in NC) a 24v battery and a 20" wheel will give you what you want.

A crystalyte 408 motor, 20" rim with a 36 volt battery would work out really well with a 35 amp controller. Depending on how far you want to commute (with what you describe, it looks like 10 miles, max) I would say a $400 Li-Po battery would be more than enough for the power supply ($550 for a higher power system), it looks like your frames are running about 400-500 and the motor would be about 350-450. I am sure, in volume, the prices would be cheaper. This would give you a bike that I would buy and would not immediately regret the purchase (as I would with a Walmart-type e-Bike) for about $1200.
 
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