Torque-Sensor Motor w/ Sine-Wave Controller Build

[tony16]

WhatcomRider, I bought a similar controller S06s and S06p from Ecytipower (same like on bmsbettery).
You can upload pictures of the disassembled electronic board controller?
I think that they should be the same.

s06s

s06p

main chip ST lab, mosfet STP80NF70

 

[crossbreak]

thx for the info.

problem1 solved: Some wobble in the Pas disc caused irregular pulses. Analysed this with an Arduino. A washer below the disc solved the problem.
problem2 solved: Speed sensor is at the front wheel. Controller seems to ignore it for max speed setting. It seems to use commutation speed. I now setup 9kph limit, and it throttles motor speed from 43kph (without limit) to almost exactly 25km/h reliably. A bit strange, but it works perfectly.

Thx for your manual offer, I have it. There are only 3 options that can be setup: Speed, Wheel dia and unit (kph/miles)

After some test I can confirm that the S06P in fact uses torque mode throttle. It accelerates to full speed at all power levels, but different torque. This is what I searched for YEARS. so happy with this controller now

The S06P is will be square wave, since the manufacturer says there are 2 versions: S06P (square wave) and S06S (sine wave). Sine wave one costs a bit more, i will test this using a scope tomorrow.

Why exactly should it not be possible to use the S06S with the sensorless emulator board from the S06P? Not enough space internally, but externally would be possible i guess?

 

[crossbreak]

hey tony, pics are very helpful! I see these controllers have an additional 3-wire torque-sensor input. I ask myself if there is a difference to the normal throttle input? Could you please post a pic of the pin the torque-sensor input is soldered to? Would be awesome if I could use it with the S06P Could you plz also post the exact label of the MCU of the S06S?

BTW these controllers have INSTANT throttle response. The throttle is a combined torque/speed throttle, in the upper range it almost behaves like a pure torque throttle Real nice, since it makes driving in throttle mode much more comfortable. Behaves almost like a gas engine with carburettor throttle So happy that I bought these, no comparison to the crappy X8m06 sensorless controllers that have sluggish throttle response, long throttle delay, just no fun to drive.

Now lets but use some IRFB3077 Fets in a 12Fet S12P controller and see if it does 65amps@48V=3kW Has anyone an idea where to get some programming software/datasheet for these? We coould program easily using the free software from ST Labs and an ST programmer for STM8 chips

 

[WhatcomRider]

thx for the info.

problem1 solved: Some wobble in the Pas disc caused irregular pulses. Analysed this with an Arduino. A washer below the disc solved the problem.
problem2 solved: Speed sensor is at the front wheel. Controller seems to ignore it for max speed setting. It seems to use commutation speed. I now setup 9kph limit, and it throttles motor speed from 43kph (without limit) to almost exactly 25km/h reliably. A bit strange, but it works perfectly.

Thx for your manual offer, I have it. There are only 3 options that can be setup: Speed, Wheel dia and unit (kph/miles)

After some test I can confirm that the S06P in fact uses torque mode throttle. It accelerates to full speed at all power levels, but different torque. This is what I searched for YEARS. so happy with this controller now

The S06P is will be square wave, since the manufacturer says there are 2 versions: S06P (square wave) and S06S (sine wave). Sine wave one costs a bit more, i will test this using a scope tomorrow.

Why exactly should it not be possible to use the S06S with the sensorless emulator board from the S06P? Not enough space internally, but externally would be possible i guess?

Now I see that I got the model numbers mixed up between square and sine-wave, sorry about that. Glad you got things sorted out. I am going to PM you the advanced configuration settings document anyway because my controller has 5 more hidden settings besides the ones you mention (specific button combos and timing are required to get to them). Perhaps yours has as well, in which case you should be able to solve the issue remaining with the speed settings.

Seems like using the sensorless emulator board on the S06S might be possible. I'd say go for it!

@Tony16, here's a pic of my torque-sensor sine-wave controller for comparison [click to enlarge]:


It also uses STP80NF70 MOSFETS and an STM8S105xx series MCU.

 

[crossbreak]

Perhaps yours has as well, in which case you should be able to solve the issue remaining with the speed settings.

Thanks, problem solved. Just enter motor pole count in the hidden setup mode and the km/h setting is accurate. Doesn't even need a speed sensor anymore, if using a direct drive hub this thing is better than the CA V3

Another link to the "hidden setup" manual. Just can be found at ecitypower/bmsbattery website, even downloaded and saved it before.. and forgot it xD can't say why they just not make a single document... i'll write a manual in speech that can be understood next week, when I found all those setting and their meaning. Will also post a table with the pole counts of the different motors (Crystallite, Bafang etc.) top make this complete https://www.bmsbattery.com/attachment.php?id_attachment=52

Hope I can hack the Data connection somehow, maybe we can change setting like LVC, max amps etc, would make programming an ease. here the rx/tx connectors enter the MCU

 

[docnjoj]

Anyone know the # of poles for a 9C 2807?
otherDoc
Thanks Crossbreak. I got the S12S and all the goodies for it including the LCD screen to try a Pededec setup. Never used pedelec before but it seems like it might be a good idea to rest my throttle hand and make the bike a bit more legal in my town. If you gotta pedal it must be legal
otherDoc
I too got both documents and it does seem to be quite adjustable just like it is. I will find out if it ever stopps raining here.

 

[crossbreak]

Nice to hear. Good alternative to Infineon controller+CA, much cheaper.Have to test low induction motors before I proceed. Nice thing of the Greentime/X8M06/KU-series controllers is they even work still reliably with low induction motors, even sensorless.

 

[docnjoj]

I'm a Hall man from way back. I dread having to be stuck on a hill and not able to start with sensorless. I think these controllers are both?
otherDoc

 

[crossbreak]

yes they can. But they cannot switch back to sensorless if halls fail. X8M06 can do that.

Just tested a KV195, ~10µH inductance 80cc Rotomax BLDC on the S06P. Does only turn very slowly adn says Error06 after a few seconds. Tested it with a 6Fet X8M06 / KU65, turns till ~660Hz or 40.000 e-rpm but has start-up hassle. Still X8M06 are the best choice e-bike controllers for low inductance motors IMO, at least better than Infineon and the S-Series.

A KV100 motor with 200µH (15 turn N6364 motor) works fine on both S06P and KU65. Could not test the max e-rpm of the S06P. since I have no motor at hand that spins >40.000 e-rpm, except the Rotomax. But this is proof that it does at least 40.000. The S06P has smother start up, but says Error06 if there is only little resistance.

 

[Kingfish]

Anyone know the # of poles for a 9C 2807?

The 2807 is the same as the 2806 -> 23 pp and 51 teeth.

~KF

 

[docnjoj]

Anyone know the # of poles for a 9C 2807?

The 2807 is the same as the 2806 -> 23 pp and 51 teeth.

~KF

Thanks KF!
otherDoc

 

[docnjoj]

I just reread the Advanced settings and it does need a bit of translation. Made my head hurt!
What is the "reduction ratio " of a non-geared motor?
otherDoc

 

[crossbreak]

It is one. There is no reduction. Just enter 46 as "rotor alnico number"

 

[docnjoj]

Thanks again, Crossbreak.
otherDoc

 

[iperov]

docnjoj,


E-bike stable at our house
Bike-e electric front brushed C/L
Steintrike Mad Max full suspension trike rear 9C
Sun USX delta trike 9C front wheel sort of front suspension
Frame of homebuilt trike in shed with Bafang still on it
New Agniusm/A123 on the Steini and old 10ah Ping paralleled with 12 ah Fatpacks on USX
My wife and I ride the trikes

 

[docnjoj]

Iperov, I think something is wrong!
otherDoc

 

[dr_lulz]

did anyone think of:
buy a s12s controller,
flash it with software provided in ST UM0712 "STM8S three-phase AC induction motor control software library V1.0"
switch fets and caps to 100V

and have my high end 12Fet sine wave controller?

 

[Arbol]

Does the xofo motor still have the problem reported as:

I am disappointed with the XOFO torque-sensor motor. It appears to be well constructed except for the quality of the cable that goes through the axle. This week my second replacement motor failed at the top of a 300 foot hill climb. Checking with a multimeter I discovered that the Hall ground wire shorted with the phase wires. It seems that the plastic insulation on the wires is not durable enough to handle the heat generated by the modest amount of current that the controller puts out, around 14 amps max. In contrast the Heinzmann motor on my Europa withstands crazy amounts of heat generation during long hill climbs without failure.

It seems this problem with the cables is a no-no, but if solved, probably the xofo would be an attractive package.

 

[WhatcomRider]

Does the xofo motor still have the problem reported as:

I am disappointed with the XOFO torque-sensor motor. It appears to be well constructed except for the quality of the cable that goes through the axle. This week my second replacement motor failed at the top of a 300 foot hill climb. Checking with a multimeter I discovered that the Hall ground wire shorted with the phase wires. It seems that the plastic insulation on the wires is not durable enough to handle the heat generated by the modest amount of current that the controller puts out, around 14 amps max. In contrast the Heinzmann motor on my Europa withstands crazy amounts of heat generation during long hill climbs without failure.

It seems this problem with the cables is a no-no, but if solved, probably the xofo would be an attractive package.

Arbol, in March when I told the vendor about the problem with the short in the wiring he was concerned enough to have me send the defective motor back to him for analysis. Then in July in a Skype conversation he told me that "we had changed the workmanship of the wires connected, now all will be better than before". He has always been fair and honest in my dealings with him so I see no reason not to believe him. But given his difficulty with English I didn't pursue it any further, so I don't know exactly what was changed. Next time I have a Skype conversation with him I will ask for pics of the internal wiring of the latest XOFO torque-sensor motor and report back here on this thread.

 

[Arbol]

Does the xofo motor still have the problem reported as:

I am disappointed with the XOFO torque-sensor motor. It appears to be well constructed except for the quality of the cable that goes through the axle. This week my second replacement motor failed at the top of a 300 foot hill climb. Checking with a multimeter I discovered that the Hall ground wire shorted with the phase wires. It seems that the plastic insulation on the wires is not durable enough to handle the heat generated by the modest amount of current that the controller puts out, around 14 amps max. In contrast the Heinzmann motor on my Europa withstands crazy amounts of heat generation during long hill climbs without failure.

It seems this problem with the cables is a no-no, but if solved, probably the xofo would be an attractive package.

Arbol, in March when I told the vendor about the problem with the short in the wiring he was concerned enough to have me send the defective motor back to him for analysis. Then in July in a Skype conversation he told me that "we had changed the workmanship of the wires connected, now all will be better than before". He has always been fair and honest in my dealings with him so I see no reason not to believe him. But given his difficulty with English I didn't pursue it any further, so I don't know exactly what was changed. Next time I have a Skype conversation with him I will ask for pics of the internal wiring of the latest XOFO torque-sensor motor and report back here on this thread.

Thank you, WhatcomRider, appreciated. The xofo package seems a theoretically interesting one, but one never knows what happens in practice. Having an insightful opinion from a "Westerner" would help a lot.

From what you say, the required changes would be quite minimal. But of course, without them one cannot be sure of the quality, and burning a motor twice is unacceptable, especially if the reason is the one you outline.

 

[TheBeastie]

Pat, I highly doubt that the BMS S06S controller can be made to work on a motor without Hall sensors. Once you do install a motor with Hall sensors: if your LCD panel has the option of setting assist mode 6 it will work throttle only. In the other modes the throttle is inactive, and you will need to use a PAS to control the motor speed.

Robert

How did you get your LCD panel to have "assist mode 6"? Mine only goes up to 5. I am trying to get my kit working from BMSbattery. I haven't got a peep out of my motor yet just trying to use throttle.
Everything looks wired up correctly, except the PAS sensor isn't installed because I don't have the crank removal tool, will be getting it tomorrow. It has wiring for throttle so I assume it can work, I went into the panels advanced LCD mode and tried about every single combo and still got no throttle.

This is what I ordered (don't try to read into it via the odd url names...)
http://www.bmsbattery.com/ebike-kits/589-q11-48v1kw-front-driving-hub-motor-e-bike-conversion-kit.html
http://www.bmsbattery.com/controller/552-s06-250w-imitation-torque-square-wave-controller.html
http://www.bmsbattery.com/controller/548-s-led770-e-bike-led-meter.html

 

[-dg]

yes they can. But they cannot switch back to sensorless if halls fail. X8M06 can do that.

Are you saying that you can operate the S06S sinewave controller sensorless. That is, if you have a sensorless motor it will actually work even though the vendor claims it won't? I'd like this to be true as most of my motors are sensorless and otherwise these controllers sound great.

 

[WhatcomRider]

Pat, I highly doubt that the BMS S06S controller can be made to work on a motor without Hall sensors. Once you do install a motor with Hall sensors: if your LCD panel has the option of setting assist mode 6 it will work throttle only. In the other modes the throttle is inactive, and you will need to use a PAS to control the motor speed.

Robert

How did you get your LCD panel to have "assist mode 6"? Mine only goes up to 5. I am trying to get my kit working from BMSbattery. I haven't got a peep out of my motor yet just trying to use throttle.
Everything looks wired up correctly, except the PAS sensor isn't installed because I don't have the crank removal tool, will be getting it tomorrow. It has wiring for throttle so I assume it can work, I went into the panels advanced LCD mode and tried about every single combo and still got no throttle.

This is what I ordered (don't try to read into it via the odd url names...)
http://www.bmsbattery.com/ebike-kits/589-q11-48v1kw-front-driving-hub-motor-e-bike-conversion-kit.html
http://www.bmsbattery.com/controller/552-s06-250w-imitation-torque-square-wave-controller.html
http://www.bmsbattery.com/controller/548-s-led770-e-bike-led-meter.html

The advanced settings parameter P4 needs to be set to 0 for throttle mode to work. However, with my first order I received a spare LCD display with a separate button panel. It has all the same settings as the one with integrated buttons that I use in my system, but no matter how I configure it, I can't get it to go into assist mode 6. So apparently some of the LCD display models are programmed to run in throttle mode and some are not. It is frustrating to say the least. You would think that a controller with a throttle connection would be able to run with a throttle. You could try contacting BMS Battery and at least make them aware of the problem.

 

[TheBeastie]

Pat, I highly doubt that the BMS S06S controller can be made to work on a motor without Hall sensors. Once you do install a motor with Hall sensors: if your LCD panel has the option of setting assist mode 6 it will work throttle only. In the other modes the throttle is inactive, and you will need to use a PAS to control the motor speed.

Robert

How did you get your LCD panel to have "assist mode 6"? Mine only goes up to 5. I am trying to get my kit working from BMSbattery. I haven't got a peep out of my motor yet just trying to use throttle.
Everything looks wired up correctly, except the PAS sensor isn't installed because I don't have the crank removal tool, will be getting it tomorrow. It has wiring for throttle so I assume it can work, I went into the panels advanced LCD mode and tried about every single combo and still got no throttle.

This is what I ordered (don't try to read into it via the odd url names...)
http://www.bmsbattery.com/ebike-kits/589-q11-48v1kw-front-driving-hub-motor-e-bike-conversion-kit.html
http://www.bmsbattery.com/controller/552-s06-250w-imitation-torque-square-wave-controller.html
http://www.bmsbattery.com/controller/548-s-led770-e-bike-led-meter.html

The advanced settings parameter P4 needs to be set to 0 for throttle mode to work. However, with my first order I received a spare LCD display with a separate button panel. It has all the same settings as the one with integrated buttons that I use in my system, but no matter how I configure it, I can't get it to go into assist mode 6. So apparently some of the LCD display models are programmed to run in throttle mode and some are not. It is frustrating to say the least. You would think that a controller with a throttle connection would be able to run with a throttle. You could try contacting BMS Battery and at least make them aware of the problem.

Well I put the PAS sensor on today and I still haven't got any life out of my kit, I tried that P4 = 0 setting to try and get throttle going and it doesn't work for me.

 

[capoccia]

Do you know if there is a procedure to remove a speed limit(40kmh) on the display?