Trek Lime is NO lemon: video duds #37A and #37 in place now

[John in CR]

Personally I'm a bit afraid of taking one of those automatics and using it on an ebike. How smooth is the shifting as you apply force to the pedals. eg When you go up and over one of the archway bridges, imagine how it would handle with the much higher torque of an electric motor applied. Whether it would hold up to the power input is a separate issue. How do you think the auto shifting would work on an ebike?

John

 

[Reid Welch]

Personally I'm a bit afraid of taking one of those automatics and using it on an ebike. How smooth is the shifting as you apply force to the pedals. eg When you go up and over one of the archway bridges, imagine how it would handle with the much higher torque of an electric motor applied. Whether it would hold up to the power input is a separate issue. How do you think the auto shifting would work on an ebike?John

Great and good questions, John.

Ans: I don't know yet. But from what I remember of a couple of years ago, discussions here: wide-ratio internal geared hubs and such, are not good such great candidates to elect to a cyclone-type drive...those inertial shock loads. OTOH, just thinking aloud:

There are NuVinci-type hubs, and 14 speed German Marvel ,that can certainly take the guff of a human, Armstrong Power Rider jumping on the pedals.

The shifting of this nascent, introductory, Shimano sysem, three speed, is snappy, just like in the usual ICE automatic transmission vehicle...let's say, like the current SMART car (manual transmission but, automatically-shifted)

The future, though, seems liable to bring forth, fast, electro-automatic shifting for bikes, for sure.

We, with our presently primitive ebikes, will, in ten years' time, likely look back at this period,
like we, today look at 1895: all the basics are done. Now, to just refine these ebikes....

--

Still images to come

The Trek Lime is sort of a hybrid, already, of ebike and non-electric principles.

I need to make a 17mm thin wrench (LBS???)
from an un-needed 16mm cup and cone wrench,
before I go farther than this, last night:
[youtube]FcYTCLz0tbI[/youtube]

---
You asked, 'how does it shift'? (sort of like that, folks).

FOLKS, the thing shifts so clean and crisp, about ninety percent of the time,
that only by effing up can you "miss" or mar a shift. Snick, snick, snick, it goes.
And, this is a merely a first generation of Things To Come.

You know, Predictions of Things to Come, was my cousin, Drew's, (reid puffs like a toad in (see, it is self-defensive) pride, which he did not earn right to inflate himself with, NATIONAL, USA radio broadcasts; that was Drew's and the radio public's favourite segment of the show, and it came at the closing time, right and proper-honest.

I PREDICT that manual shifting of any bike made ten years from to-day, will be considered as preposterous as the birds and flowers on hats of our ladies of nineteen hundred and ten!

http://www.library.american.edu/pearson/AU_Library_collections.html

Sincerely, I drew all this-of-me, from genetics, not "smarts", nor by hard work,

"Drew" reid welch
(this solitary man, difficult beyond endurance, is "me", "reincarnated" now)
http://www.archive.org/details/WWII_News_19450422_Drew_Pearson

 

[WonderProfessor]

I PREDICT that manual shifting of any bike made ten years from to-day, will be considered as preposterous as the birds and flowers on hats of our ladies of nineteen hundred and ten!

"Prediction is very difficult, especially about the future." -- Niels Bohr (also attributed to Mark Twain)

But I do hope you are right. I hate it when I am in the wrong gear trying to get up a hill.

I have another question which I think you may have answered but I wasn't smart enough to figure out the answer. How do you brake? Does it just have a rear-wheel coaster brake? If so, isn't that fairly inadequate, especially for hilly areas?

 

[Reid Welch]

I PREDICT that manual shifting of any bike made ten years from to-day, will be considered as preposterous as the birds and flowers on hats of our ladies of nineteen hundred and ten!

"Prediction is very difficult, especially about the future." -- Niels Bohr (also attributed to Mark Twain)

But I do hope you are right. I hate it when I am in the wrong gear trying to get up a hill.

I have another question which I think you may have answered but I wasn't smart enough to figure out the answer. How do you brake? Does it just have a rear-wheel coaster brake? If so, isn't that fairly inadequate, especially for hilly areas.

Ans. later. I have to go buy and then solder-replace an old time toilet valve.

ALL RESPECT and admiration for your intelligent and succinct question/notes posed, but, I have to answer later.

NOTE: that entity, "reid" constantly de-tracks even his own threads. For a purpose.
Some of you are rocket scientists. Some of you understand exactly why I do these seemingly strange things:
I go off in silly tangents. For now, though, I go to install a shitty new toilet valve :lol:

Kind and sane regards,

Reid-the-shin-frocker-upper

 

[Reid Welch]

El Sr. Bloggo, here.


I do not normally publish private correspondence without prior OK from the sender.
I make an exception below. I publish a private letter. They won't mind.

You get what you pay for, remember?

POINT: Bike makers and vendors from all over the world READ these threads.
And they care, they all care:

Show Full Headers | Printer View | Add Sender To Address Book | Report Spam & Delete

From: "Schumacher, Jason" <Jason_Schumacher@trekbikes.com>

To: <ReidWelch@netscape.com>

Subject: RE: Full Circle: back to Trek again after so many years

Date: Mon 06/29/09 10:17 AM


Attachments
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Good Morning Reid,

It is always great to hear from someone so excited about a new bike!

I hope you had a great weekend of riding and are enjoying your new Trek Lime.

We use Limes often here in Waterloo, WI to run errands and commute around town from the office.

We also had a big event a couple of years ago where we had 1000 Limes built up for a dealer show we had.

That is a great picture of you and the folks at Coral Way. I have worked with Ismael and the guys there for a long time.

I was their inside rep almost ten years ago and love when I get a chance to speak with him from time to time.

I am also glad to hear that everything worked out with the price.



Thanks again for sharing! Be sure to stay in touch and let us know how much fun you are having!

-Jason



Jason Schumacher | Technical & Customer Services Manager | Trek Bicycle Corporation | 800-313-8735 x12229 | fax: 920-478-5530 | jason_schumacher@trekbikes.com





From: Reid Welch [mailto:ReidWelch@netscape.com]
Sent: Friday, June 26, 2009 10:57 PM
To: jburke
Subject: Full Circle: back to Trek again after so many years



A happy thread for the Trek team.


I am too wordy, and so on, but you see some beautiful thoughts in this thread of mine:
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=11160&p=171519#p171519


Kind regards to you all from Coconut Grove, Miami, Florida


Reid Welch

 

[OneWayTraffic]

The 3-speed Nexus has a gear ratio of 180% IIRC. It's roughly 33% between each gear. I have a 3-speed Nexus on my bike and I must say I've never wished for an auto system. Changing is just too easy the way it is.

 

[Reid Welch]

The 3-speed Nexus has a gear ratio of 180% IIRC. It's roughly 33% between each gear. I have a 3-speed Nexus on my bike and I must say I've never wished for an auto system. Changing is just too easy the way it is.

That is a very good point.

Humorous invite: just you come to Miami or Waterloo, or wherever, and spend an hour on a Trek Lime. :wink:
You will be all smiles.

BTW, it is a just about 22 pounds of bike, not "32"lbs, as I have read elsewhere; that is a plain old error of someone else's doing;
it is FUN to ride a reasonably lightweight bike, manually. Ebike for speed and distance, manual bike for simple errands,
for short runs in particular...whatever you like. Remember, too, that the manual bike forces your to do some mild exercise;
the ebike does not do that. They are handbasket parters, each a flower lacking a few petals. Between them both, however you've got the whole, floral shebang. I like a simple bike! We all need a measure of exercise to keep reasonably fit, anyway.
The ebike is, at times, just too tempting--to employ the throttle and go "scorching"; speed riding without sweat.

LIME has no fuggly brake handles, cables-in-view, nor shifter-controls.

LIME in black, in particular, sans the ipod-like hub color accents is plain masculine looking; just a guy's bike.
It does not look too cute nor girly...it gets you to the local store and back.

I can prove, time proved too, that a bike, ridden with a whit of child's wisdom, need not have a front brake;
not unless you must descent long, heavy grades and possibly cook the coaster brake.

TO BRAKE: LEAN BACK and back-pedal. You can skid the tire if you try. So what. Then ease off the braking a bit.
This is how millions and millions of basic bikes braked for decades. They can stop, in an emergency, about half as quickly
as does a front braked bike, which CAN, in the hands of an inexperienced rider, fall down in a front wheel skid,
or throw you over the bars.

Rear wheel skids are fun, actually. In the car sports world, the lads call it "drifting". Ha ha!

Super Men, you WILL like the auto shifter feature.
Think about whatever; don't think about when and where to shift, even just a three speed?

My new motto, and Trek has permission to adopt/adapt this proverb,
as they like it, no charge or obligation, pro bono:

I ride the LIME. The LIME does not ride ME.

----
Thank you OWT for your entirely logical and circumspect input to this thread,
this thread ten miles long, which will...... never finish!

ha ha,

your virtual friend,

Reid

 

[John in CR]

...They can stop, in an emergency, about half as quickly
as does a front braked bike..

Did you mean in half the distance or twice as quickly? I remember that I could stop using a sideways skid with the bikes I had as a kid, which had only a rear coaster brake, in a much shorter distance than any bikes I've had since. Of course, it may just be an illusion since I had only about 25% of the mass to stop back then.

John

 

[Reid Welch]

Did you mean in half the distance or twice as quickly? I remember that I could stop using a sideways skid with the bikes I had as a kid, which had only a rear coaster brake, in a much shorter distance than any bikes I've had since. Of course, it may just be an illusion since I had only about 25% of the mass to stop back then.John

It's just an old "rule", and hardly precise, I don't think.
Front brakes enabled autos to stop in half the distance, say from 20mph, than rear wheel only cars (front brakes for cars came in about 1924).

Now, on a bike, the inherent forward-throw of the rider's weight must make the rear wheel brake-only bike a poor stopping machine,
particularly, so for heavier riders, as you noted, especially if they are seat-forward riders.

I tend to always LEAN WAY BACK if I need to stop fast.
I can do that with the LIME, LEAN BACK TO BRAKE, or with the Stealth Cruiser ebike.
Both stop just fine and fast enough for my needs.

Others will have valid opinions very much to the contrary. They need or want the complexity of a good, front brake.
As said by self here, NO hills to deal with. And I'm almost never going more than 20-per. And I anticipate the unexpected.

Simple is as simple does: you give up one sort of feature in order to KISS, as they say. I like simple stuff.
I also admire brave, strong riders. Who wouldn't love to do this with their LIME or other sturdy bike?
[youtube]e4bRjUo-r_U[/youtube]
Yep, that's a LIME and it can take the guff, even though he's hardly stressing the bike at all.
Squeeze it for all it's got inside: basic strength that I don't suppose we see too much of in super-light racing bikes?
LIME should be popular with the BMX guys for ramp tricks and such, yes?...because it is different and "fresh" compared against BMX bikes.

__________
I hope to have the Bontrager 2.3" wide HANKS tomorrow, end of the day,
at which time I'll tear into the front hub "generator", and mount the new tire.
And then get into the shifter mechanism (photos) and swap the treaded rear tire for the other HANK slick.
I do like 'dem slicks for stickin' to the ground. Perfect for bombing too.
The OEM tires are fine, though. Not excessively thick or stiff like some "puncture proof" street tires.
I just want slicks because they are the easiest rolling of all bike tires,
and they look boss, manly, and everybody who looks at my bike (the cruiser) says "WOW, those tires are DIFFERENT."
And so they are. Different, and designed by masters of the art of tire construction.

Bontrager (Trek owns Bontrager) slicks (the two HANK models) are the most supple of all slicks, lightweight too.
And we don't have thorns nor broken glass on our Miami roads. I like Bontrager Hanks and Big Hanks.

----
edit of july the fourth: removed comma from after "bombing".
I have but one thing, important, in common with Oscar Wilde:
we both agonize/d over the placement, or omission, of those dratted commas.

 

[Reid Welch]

I will make a KISS scenario.
You all are experienced bikers.
ebiking is but an extension of biking.

You are now on a public road and you've just fitted a new and very powerful disk brake,
or Vee pads, new super-stoppers, best-rated brand, to the front wheel.

A child darts into the road just too quick. You panic; I sure would.

You instinctively grab for that front brake handle and stop fast...perhaps too fast.
You either skid and lay down the bike or you go over the bars with the flipping bike after you.

----
Alternatively, say you have a rear-wheel-brake-only, bike. You are instinctive and accustomed to its braking characteristics;
the coaster brake works identically the same in wet or dry conditions.
A good, soft compound, slick tire stops practically as fast on wet pavement (not sandy or muddy) as it does on clean and dry asphalt. We don't need or want tread on clean asphalt roads. Nor do we want hard-inflated tires; they are poorer at adhesion

The child, or cat, or squirrel dart...you, on your say, coaster brake bike, LEAN BACK and brake.
At worst, you fishtail, but you are in control.
You can miss the object. You can recover your poise in an instant.

Now, we are NOT going 30mph in these two, imaginary, instances;
we are going at bike speeds: under 20 mph or so.
And we are not going downhill from Pike's Peak, plus, the road is level, not a steep down slope.
No need then for a front brake. See? It's all in the conditions of your locale and in your skill level.

For me, I've had front brakes before and I have used them correctly, for the most part.
I never had but one accident, and that was because I was a 13 year old going just a few miles-per on a slimy, wet sidewalk.
I gripped the Varsity's front brake too hard. Locked the wheel. Fall down, ouch. Scratched the new bike, a birthday present.

YOU won't do such a thing, but a beginner or a panicked rider =can conceivably= lock the front wheel, which lock-up
lays the bike down or puts it totally out of your control (you may even fly).

Coaster brakes are rugged and reliable if you keep the machine in good order.
They don't stop a bike so very fast. How often must you stop instantly, anyway, if you keep sub-25mph on your ebike?
I've seen in person, too many bike accidents, and know that the damages done are to the rider, and increase in severity in log proportion to the speed the bike was running, or hit by a fast moving car. BUCKETS OF BLOOD even at a mere15mph.

So: if we use caution and know what we are doing and why we are doing it, either system can be called "adequate";
depends on so many factors. Brains are the most important factor, not a super-stopper front brake, not in most emergency situations.
This is merely my opinion and devil's choice of two kinds of =possible evil results=.
Your needs and skills, guys, vary from mine. Do as you like in choosing a bike.
That's what choices are all about here. Make your choice and learn to brake under all conditions, panic, wet, slush, etc,
using whatever braking system you like. I like rear braking for the reasons stated. I am not going 40 per down long hills,
or I'd FOR SURE have a front brake, preferably a disk brake.

PS: and this is in red because I feel passionate now: HOW MANY OF YOU bikers have ever come close to the edge of front-braking
just a weeeee bit too fast or strong?
I know that I've come close to the limit of front tire adhesion, or even, nearly, 'pulted myself over the bars
in experimental panic-braking situations, practice braking efforts, made in order to test my limits and those of the machine.

I cannot fatally err with a coaster brake; not in the wet, not in the dry, not at all.
The coaster brake always, always, works the same way; it is a no-brainer, the coaster brake.
You just MUST keep the chain and cogs in good order, for, if the chain falls off, you are busted.
Keep the coaster-braked machine in good order and it cannot ever give you any such nasty surprise as "no brakes at all!".
~~~~
No sudden need to panic stop in real life riding has ever presented itself to me.
But, a cat or raccoon will, someday, run in front of my bike, and if front braked, I will come close to losing control due to a panic.
Maybe you won't do that because you are a better rider, but I will do that too-fast-front braking, eventually with a front brake of real power. So, no front brake for me, thank you.

BUT, again, I do not have long downgrades to descend,
which long grades would/could easily cook a coaster brake.
In which case of hilly locale, I'd have front braking, and use it most all the time,
and alternate between front and rear in order to not burn up pads, or fry the coaster's internal grease.

PPS: and my fron-and-rear vee brake bike tests were formally done over two years ago, way back when I had that blue Currie Mongoose retro cruiser bike. It had no coaster brake, just rim brakes. I put super-quality pads on the front, OEM pads stayed on the rear.

See my earliest postings about the blue bike here, still on record. That bike could stop on a dime!

I had it fitted with the same leaned-back Thud Buster that I use today.
I LEANED WAY BACK for my braking tests.

The Bontrager Big Hank slicks then used, and still in service today, are so grippy, and the pads I used up front were "super duper" efficient,
and I had to air that front tire to at least 30 PSI, to avoid terrible wrinkling of the supple sidewalls of the front tire taking all that strain.

I COULD EASILY CATAPULT MYSELF OVER THAT BIKE. I never did catapult, but I came so close...on purpose...to learn....
....SUPER tires, super pads that Sheldon Brown sold to me; I did hundreds of panic stop tests, in order to teach myself the limits,
that, in an emergency, I would not take a header, or, on muddy pavement, LOCK that front tire and faw down, BOOM.
No matter my practice: I know that if an object darted into my path, I would reflexively brake too strongly and suffer injury in result.
YOU might not, but you are not me. I live (figuratively) in the year 1898:

one of the very first coaster brakes. note the oiler-cap? note that it is not yet perfected,
and the chain is that first generation "block chain"; and the "Doolittle" (unfortunate name!),
does not automatically release when you ease-off the back-pedal-pressure.
KWYADAWYADI, both then and now?

 

[WonderProfessor]

It is true that gripping the front brake on a diamond frame bike can make you flip the bike over. This is why the front brake lever is on the left handlebar. Most people are right-handed and have more strength in their right hand. Therefore, the bike manufacturers put the front brake lever on the left handlebar. Some experts recommend that left-handed cyclists move their front brake lever to their right handlebar. Disk brakes make this hazard all the worse.

Of course, if you are lucky enough to have a recumbent bicycle, you don't have to worry about this problem. Recumbent bikes can not flip over. I have deliberately tried to raise the rear wheel of my recumbent and have never been successful. (For example, I have slammed on the front brake bombing down a hill at over 40 mph.)

Reid is absolutely right about the Lime not being suitable for some areas. Here in San Diego, you would literally have to get off and walk the Lime down some of our hills. It would be even worse in some other cities.

 

[D-Man]

Crazy Crazy Crazy. Can't you leave anything alone? Take a new bike and take it apart. It will never run the same now.
I crown you with a new name. "Reid the wrecker!"
Dude, your suppose to enjoy life. Ride the new bike, sniff the clean air, install the drink holder.

 

[Reid Welch]

Youse two above :x
Dis is Coily speakin'. Youse get me now? I'se joking, like Reid generally is a joker
for a purpose: to a hammer home a point wit hiss bald head.

Nailing Truth with Stupidity; it's my motto, yuk, yuk, yuk!

YOUSE TWO ABOVE, I will answer cogently, in detail, later on.
For now I gotta go change-out my old man's OTHER upstairs toilet.
(see the Buckets of Blood thread for background and "gore"?).
He has a twin bathroom...but I ain't there, I lives in the garage below, and he ain't got no twins, nor children at all!
Weird! Stuff!
___________________

Yes, you two are in for the Full Reid Treatment, perhaps tonight, later.

PS: said with genuine affection; neither of you knows how high you float my boat. You are my figurative life preservers, both of you.

I lap attention like Pussy slurps cow's milk from a dish. More to come later.
Thank you both, my little lab pups!

Reid/Curly: not-so-bright-but-bright-enough,

Yuk yuk yuk! no-toice 'da chairs in da background?
De is exactly, nearly, like da chairs in my old man's dining room. Think "Mrs. Haversham"....
Anyways, not only does REID loik like Curly-me, he is stupid at times, but not stupid at all, not really:
just a bright normal, IQ 118 at best. Yuk yuk yuk: "Full disclosure" means two tings, maybe three:
telling your age and IQ, and showing off the poo that you just made by boo-boo in your Pampers!

 

[Reid Welch]

The damned thing is super-duper hard steel.
I used a dial caliper to get the grinding exactly right and true.

But found that, due to the deeply recessed placement of the inner nut,
the wrench must be "kicked", bent at about a 30 degree angle.

I knew better than to try to bend the thing cold. But my propane torch is not here at home at the moment.
SNAP, in the blue vise, not a bend, but a blood-letting snap.

So.....

...try again. BUCKETS OF BLOOD :lol:

I have learned a new lesson, just on the cusp of the long USA holiday where we explode things.
I've just had my fireworks fun, thankyouverymuch. Will get this open even though I will be anemic (blood loss) ere long.



QUESTION: does anyone reading know if that pair of inner nuts (there's a spacer collar separating two, 17mm nuts), whether
this portion of the axle is LEFT HAND THREAD? Gawd...uh, SHIMANO, please help me if I go to loosen, but tighten instead!

HALP, please?

Thanks so much for any guidances or guesses,
Reid

 

[Reid Welch]

Crazy Crazy Crazy. Can't you leave anything alone? Take a new bike and take it apart. It will never run the same now.
I crown you with a new name. "Reid the wrecker!"
Dude, your suppose to enjoy life. Ride the new bike, sniff the clean air, install the drink holder.

Can't you leave anything alone? Take a new bike and take it apart.
A: Nope. I've been taking things apart since age five, and putting even fine, old pocket watches back together, better than new, since I was fifteen.
I goof in the course of learning. By nature, I am intensely interested in HOW THINGS WORK. Hands-On is my only method. I make errors. I just broke a wrench, seen above.

It will never run the same now.
A: It will run just the same, or even better. Plus, I will KNOW MY BIKE.

PS: respectfully requesting donations from Endless Fear members, of pints of type O positive blood.
My account, you see, is running low. ha ha!

Thanks for cajoling me. I am so fond of the D-man's tender words,
that devil's food in a cupcake wrapper!


No Pain, no Grain!
[youtube]epIL5ursK3c[/youtube]

We used to let blood here in the West, as a matter of reducing blood pressure,
in fact, Washington died in direct result of excessive blood-letting. So may I.

_________________

PPS: it is a couple of hours post-posting now.

Friends, the few of you who are vicariously curious to see the Shimano hub's electrical guts;
don't expect much. It is more than likely that the unit has a cartridge bearing, press fitted or cemented to the "D" axle shaft,
in which case, I won't be able to safely take the thing to bits, for fear of ruining it due to lack of proper tools (a press, and know-how).
But I will indeed find out if the front hub bearing is cup and cone, or modern cartridge style. And I will do electrical tests with an analog multimeter,
ancient, to learn if the hub "generator" outputs sine wave AC, or has an internal diode, which would make it a DC-only output of rise-and-fall potential.

I expect it to be "brushless", just like the ancient Model T Ford's magneto: one end of a stator winding grounded to the shaft, the other end of the winding being the 'power output'. It can be AC (model T-like) or it may be rectified to DC in the hub (even can be a full wave bridge rectifier).
It could also be carbon brushed, like a regular, old time DC motor/generator. I doubt that will be the case.

I expect it is uber-simple inside, and the exterior, that beautiful high-pressure cast aluminum alloy, shows that the Shimano team put real thought and quality into the "dynamo" or whatever it really is. Look at the quality, evident even in my pooky, hand-held photos?

This is top-quality bike parts, through and through. You're still with me? Curious? I am,

Curious George/reid
PPPS: I forget. THIS IS THE USA's glorious Indepedence day!!!!!!!
WHOOPIE! No jingoism here, just joy to the world. We all mend our ways, or else!
NEWS:
http://www.voanews.com/english/2009-07-03-voa27.cfm
It only takes a minute to read, brothers of the world....

 

[Reid Welch]

D-Man, Trek, all: this is all in my blood. I did not earn any rights to call myself a word-slatherer, nor a mechanical genius:
My father's father
(concept-inventor of the window portable air conditioner, and a surgeon by trade).

His wife's first cousin, my first cousin, two generations removed,
on the air forever,
May 6, 1945....Dr. Paul Brown Welch, the first-linked man, had just died, heart failure, sudden,
about one hour before this national broadcast's recording. He was only one year older than I am today.
Drew Pearson did not even know of the loss as he intoned his many, vital, words at 60 miles per minute;
so much to say and so little air time....

What a confluence of fate, life, death, success, failure, of strangely different people.

I am nothing but an an amalgamation of of guys who knew how to -get her done-.

My present focus is on the Trek Lime because it is NEW CONCEPT; nothing like it on the market ever before.
But mark my words, "Predictions of Things to Come", as Drew closed his broadcasts: this general concept, SMART AUTOMATIC SHIFTING
of BICYCLES, will be standard on all good bikes inside of ten years' time.

I won't be alive then to see the results, but already, world-class riders are lauding the Shimano automatic shifting system for world-class racing and mountaineering bikes that have already been on the roads, racetracks and trails, for fully five years of R & D proofing.

The LIME is simply, the first and most basic of this NEW WAY TO BIKE: the most important, useful, worthy, improvement in bicycles in over one hundred years.

 

[johnrobholmes]

The threads should be normal all the way across the axle.

 

[Reid Welch]

Thank you, John, you were exactly correct, and saved me from mucking up.

Pictures to follow are pretty self explanatory.

We have a cup and cone bearing system here, after all. Good!

Made another thin wrench, from 14mm to the necessary 17mm.
It must be a quality "Inline" type of wrench; folks, you can't use a soft, stamped steel cone wrench here.

To GET THE KICK, the bend needed for the thin wrench to sit down upon that very shallow-topped 17mm cone nut,
FIRST ANNEAL the wrench: that is, take it up above 600F or so with your propane torch. Let it cool. Bend only about 20 or 30 degrees.
Now grind with the Dremel or other means, using a go-no-go gauge of exactly 17mm minus a hair's width.

FIT the wrench to the cone. It should be a tap-tight fit, and before you do this you must REHARDEN the wrench:
SOAK IT RED HOT and dunk it instantly into cold or salted water.

Now, the pictures show how that custom wrench fitted, and then a 17mm 6 point socket made short work of breaking loose that large, upper, jam nut.

TO FINISH GETTING THIS APART, see the final pictures: CHALLENGE: I must make/modify a very large box or open end to fit the hex of the electrical side of the unit.

So, this is just a progress report. Beautiful engineering, top quality parts! And are those tiny magnets that I am beginning to see?
My eyesight is so poor.

Picture essay, next forms, and then: we get the stator completely out and see what it's all about.
No disasters or damages so far at all.

 

[Reid Welch]

Not fully shown: the upper, thick 17mm nut was to be jammed against the chromed socket nut,
so that it, the 17mm thick nut, could be wrenched whilst holding the thin wrench on the shallow-height cone.

It came apart like cupcake, thanks to John telling me that this shaft is all-RH thread.

I like loose balls. I always count my balls.
I have two spare balls,

but of the wrong size.

Needing a much bigger wrench than this, and preferably box-end style.

Q: am I seeing tiny magnets, those little cylindrical nubbins? (rhetorical question for now)

NOTE about the black socket-contact: I'll get a picture later.
The SILVER portion of it is merely a tab-washer-contact, and grounds to the shaft.
It lifts clear off when the nut above it is removed.

The COPPER contact is molded-into the socket/contact, with one wire leading out and into the hub.
What this means, no ambiguity about it: it is exactly like a Model T Ford magneto of 1908, but up to date.
One end of the winding is grounded to the bike frame, in effect, and the other end, is the "hot".
I can see this AC potential being lead to the Shimano shifter-'brain', where it is rectified, probably...to operate
simple IC circuitry. OR it is purely a voltage-operated motor, no brains about it (very possible), and half-wave rectification
would certainly serve, with a big capacitor, perhaps, to cause the shifter to "snick" from low to M at a speed entirely dependent on
what the magneto puts out in the way of current (a couple of amps at the very most, surely).

It is a magneto. It is not a motor. It is not brushed. It would light an incandescent light bulb just fine.
The nature of these things: at low speeds you obtain low voltage/current and a dim bulb.
At very high speeds (Model T, say, 1,200rpm, voltage peaks at some point, and then actually falls lower with increased magneto speed,
this being due to the inductance of the windings, which will be high, the windings all being but coils of wire in series connection.

One day at a time. It is more work to think aloud in print and take pictures for posting, than to just do the simple work.
But, I have no real life, so I'm your geek-o-wonder "reid the wrecker!". If I had a wife and kids, I'd not be futzing with this unit.
But, perhaps, it is all of some minor interest to some few other folks, and may be a great help down the road if and when such a unit seems to quit:
you'll know just how to service/test it. I do not know but suspect that Shimano has a shop manual....in English? Anyone know?
I could write to Shimano, but, like most males, I just hate to ask strangers for directions: "which way to Loquat Avenue"? (you know how we are: pig headed).


TBC: must find a safe way to turn-out the giant hex of the "electrical side"; the right side next.
How easy this would be if I had factory tools at hand. I doubt any LBS will be able to help, but I shall inquire on Monday.

 

[Reid Welch]

What a great guy! If I were gonna RC-motor-type drive an ebike, I would def. be in close contact with John R. Holmes:
http://holmeshobbies.com/product.php?productid=199&cat=0&page=1

He knows his threads and gives minimal wind 8)

----
Thank you again, John, for saving me from turning the Shimano jam nut in the wrong direction.
I would've gotten into big, big trouble if not for your instant aid.

r

 

[Cackalacka]

I am intrigued; I don't think I would ever drive an automatic bike, for the exact same reasons I'm not apt to pursue an automatic transmission car. I just prefer the control. Not that I didn't enjoy spinning around the Blue Ridge Parkway in my old '95 Civic automatic, or driving the 101 from L.A. to Humbolt with my girl in the rented Mustang automatic convertible; I just would have preferred the anticipation and control of dropping it into 3rd or 4th when I go up that hill, or leaving it in 5th when I go down.

As for me, with my modest motor, I'm OK keeping my Raleigh in the 21st gear 80-90% of the time (I'll put into 14th gear when I'm coming from a rolling start or if I'm going up the beast hill to my east.) That said, if I lived on your side of the fall-line I'd probably be more open minded to 3-speeds (or 1-speeds, for that matter.)

As for coaster vs hand, well, while I miss my old coaster on my banana-seat Schwinn from way back in the day, let's just say that the circumstances of your Cruiser's demise, more or less justifies having a redundant safety mechanism that is independent of your pedal's position.

Perhaps some day in the near future, they will introduce fly-by-wire technology to brakes and shifters. If they have dynamos that translate a minimum amount of energy to hub-shifters, perhaps they can introduce a safe, electric-powered brake system, as well.

Anyway, pardon my ignorance (as I've only skimmed this thread) and my $0.02 (as I'm chock-full of opinions.) Looks like a pretty sweet cruiser you picked up.

 

[Reid Welch]

^
Thank you. To your finishing point: skimming this monster of a thread is about the only way to get a feel for the general situation.

The Stealth Cruiser is not "demised"; only minor damage including some broken wires at the hub,
where the hub's shaft wound in the STEEl fork, no torque arm, spreading its lips.
IMPACT at 20mph with a six inch high curbing: BAM. What a shock to the fork and hub!
Tire fine. Rim, not bent at all (Big Hank at 10PSI).

That 20mph header had nothing to do with front brakes or lack of front brakes.
It happened because, I, a novice, was pedaling through an acute traffic circle,
and the inside pedal, being powered by my left leg, came down to the asphalt,
lifting the bike's front end. This put the bike into a flying-mode: the bike now going, not in the safety circle, but flying, to then hit the curved curbing, HARD,
and I carried on, through the air, landing on dirt, thank goodness for that.
The bike flipped over as well and came to rest next to me.
I was not injured other than some road rash (dirt can do that) to the face and to the left palm.
NO front brake would have prevented that accent. It was MY ERROR, my novice-error, to corner, lean hard,
while pedaling. Now I know to NOT do that!
Anyway, the Stealth Cruiser will be back on the road after I finish playing with the new Trek Lime.

Still don't have the regular, red-wall Hanks....maybe this coming Friday they will be here.
By then I should have the magneto hub fully apart and then put together again.

Automatic shift bikes of the future will be "high end", high performance bikes;
shifted by a true "brain" system, powered by something like a little lithium battery.

This first gen-on-the market is test of sorts, to see if the concept won't please and tickle the casual cyclist.

It does tickle me. I love the LIME. But that's just me. I will be giving free test rides to locals;
just ask. You can ride my LIME all day if you like, strangers---just leave me a driver license copy
and or your car keys, for my peace of mind that the bike will be returned.

More later. Gotta get the stator out. It IS a standard (guts) low-end Shimano headlight "dyno" hub.
But properly speaking, it is truly a "magneto". There is a difference between the two things.

It is just right and just fine as it comes from the maker.
But there is no established market for the LIME yet.
I only want to extol its good points and find out its weak points.

It is a worthy, brave effort, for a big bike maker to invest so much (these are custom-adapted, LIME specific hubs, front and rear.)

Cheers, and thank you for your thoughts above, all well put and clear and impeccable.

What the general line of Shimano "dyno" hubs is about: for road lighting without batteries.
About a three watt output, maximum, is expected from this auto-shifter-powering hub.
It looks far different, cosmetically, than anything in the broad, Shimano, "dyno" hub line.
But at root they are all about the same: magnetos, not dyno-motors.
The slight magnetic cogging, nothing like the magnitude of cogging that we live with with DD hub motors, is inherent.
It is not a bad trade-off. I do not like batteries, for auto-shifting, for a bike that may be seldom used. But this is just my casual-rider preference: for a bike used heavily, or for regular work:
a small battery can be the better way, and will be the better way than a hub magneto to power the shifting.

 

[Reid Welch]

I am modding a cheap, small bench vice, by grinding its jaws less-wide,
to set two flats of the hex nut into the vise, fully seated, and clamp it super tight, and then to try turning the wheel...
which way?

Here's the little vise, just modified to be able to GRIP two of the giant nut's flats;
used a dremel with those new-system cut-off wheels, I forget the name.
This should work OK. Will wait to see if any gurus can tell me in advance
which way to turn the wheel when it is clamped in the vice? Clockwise, or counterclockwise?

The vise, of course, being the "fixed wrench", and the rim is what I will actually turn:
but which way, when looking down at it, electrical side being downward, of course;
the OTHER side has an identical molded-in hex nut,
but that all is molded fully integral with the curvy outer casing.
So we grip the side that =must= unscrew.

Where's Fibber McGee when I need him? He ALWAYS knows how to fix things up, but good! :lol:
1946 radio show, where Fibber Fixes Things and Molly suffers, per usual

If I bust it, I get a new LIME front wheel. The LBS will take care of me
if I ruin this hub; not likely that I will ruin this hub. See, Fibber is my main-man EXPERT,
unless YOU know better? Please????

"The reason I got into this mess is because I talk too much."

Fibber McGee :wink:

 

[Reid Welch]

[youtube]ScvjHd9mnRg[/youtube]
More later. This is not my video; I just found it by YT search.
These things are roundly misunderstood by almost everyone who talks of them:
the Shimano hub is not a "generator", per se.
Other brands of power-hubs, of this and other eras? Yes: generators they were and are.

A generator is a motor when given current and allowed to spin.

A generator has brushes (old school).

A brushed motor becomes a generator if driven,
and then it is generator of current, voltage = electromotive power, when spun.

This Shimano "drag" some folks complain about, is not a defect,
but is pure, classic magneto action: they all must "cog", magnetically.,

Magnetos are rugged, brushless, and much less efficient than brushed motor/generators.
This design is just like what the lab experimenters employed in 1850!

POINT: the drag of a hub magneto, as he shows above, is a rather tiny, fixed, drag of 'academic interest', only.
You won't "feel" the slight cogging of a miniature magneto.
It WILL light a tiny, two amp-or-so-max incandescent light,
which sort of lamp runs just fine on semi-sine wave AC.
An LED would also light, but flicker whilst operating.

The Model T magneto can produce about fifty watts of power, maximum, at about 15V, at about 1,000 rpm.
Unload it from it head lights and buzz-coil igntion: the voltage may rise as high as 30V, and then if speeded more,
both the voltage and current delivery will fall off to an extend.
It is a very big, heavy thing, with tungsten steel horse shoe magnets. See the linked page if interested?

ALSO:
LAMPS are not voltage operated devices. They run on current. POWER is the product of current times voltage.
Voltage is potential. One ampere of current at 3V potential, forced through a resistance (a light bulb, for instance,
produces exactly three watts of lighting power, and no more,
and so on.

In favor of the super-simple, nearly indestructable magneto: it is not fussy. It will not, cannot burn out.
And if you go forty-per down a hill, the windings are such, along with the iron, creating a sort of complex "hysterisis" (sp wrong),
that means: at low speeds, the cogging is noticeable. At very high speeds, the magnetic cogging is less and less.

For lighting, sure, I think that today, for most all bikers, a liPo type of battery and, preferably incandescent run at high current (short life for the bulb) , gives the best light of all. LEDs are still in their infancy, and have "holes" in their "CRI" index.
HID, common now on cars, is bright, but of relatively terrible color rendering index, and not so great for night driving;
better to "overdrive" a halogen incandescent, to get great, white, white light.

My opinions based on practical electrics, experience.
Now, lets OPEN the Shimano magneto tonight, or break it in the trying....

_____________
edited to fix minor technical errors of speech of electrical terms.

 

[Reid Welch]

Apologies in advance: I'm shaky, the camera in one hand, working the unit with the other hand.
Not shown here: how to remove the cone from the non-electrical side;
that other side of the bearing had already been removed off camera.

I will not take it farther apart than you see here;
no point, and de-soldering would be required of the output wire-end, from the plug socket.

Yep, this is the first YT tear-down of a Shimano hub magneto, I tink!
[youtube]H5_6FluEAtM[/youtube]

It is a magneto. It is not a "dyno", nor any such thing like an "alternator" or "generator".
It is a magneto because it is absolutely without any brush/es, or slip ring/s, etc.

One bobbin of wire inside the steel-fingered stator.
One end of that thick wire is soldered, grounded, to the shaft.
The other end leads-out to the black phenolic plug receptacle;
the copper tab.
The silver colored tab is merely a loose (nut-captured) contact washer for the plug.
It is grounded by pressure of the nut, to the shaft, which, as said, is the tie-point for one end of a long, coiled wire.
The plug bears two wires only: "hot" and a "ground". This machine outputs AC only, as expected. There is no rectifier in the unit,
so far as I can see; will check with a meter very soon.

No brushes, one moving part, and we will next put it back together
and show that it can light a small (like 6V, 3W) incandescent.
After all, these Shimano units were designed for bike lighting, and this one is like the other
lower-end Shimano hub magnetos, but Ipod-like styled by them, for Trek.

It's not going to be any more "powerful" than before the tear-down;
but, at least, I know how it works, and I have adjusted the cup and cone bearings to a nicety.


THIS MAGNETO IS THE POWER SUPPLY FOR LIME'S AUTOMATIC GEAR SHIFTER

________________________

Now mounting one of the just-arrived Bontrager Hanks.
Will show side by side photos. The OEM tires are quite good,
but I do not need nor want that tread. The bike will roll better and stickier on slicks,
which are not slickery at all on wet or dry pavement!

________________________