Trying to put back wheel on bike - makes strange sound

[Cyclomania]

Hi

So I am trying to put a backmotor-wheel on a bike-frame that I have. 28 wheels. I have a sw900 display available and the controller I have has the metrics as in the screenshot here.

The battery is a 36 volt battery from an old bike I had. I am now trying to see if they are all going to work with each other.

Now I put the gas throttle on it and try to make the wheel spin. See video:

IMG_3743 - VEED - Online Video Editor - Video Editing Made Simple

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Any idea why it only makes this sound? What should I do to make it work?


Thanks

 

[Chalo]

Your video has no sound when I watch it.

What I noticed is that you're using test leads to carry power from the battery to the controller. That's not going to work. I'm surprised you didn't smoke them.

 

[Cyclomania]

Your video has no sound when I watch it.

What I noticed is that you're using test leads to carry power from the battery to the controller. That's not going to work. I'm surprised you didn't smoke them.

Haha ok.

Yeah two steps forward and one step back right?
Why is that a bad idea? To test a battery with a system using test leads I mean.

I use that quite often when it is a pain to for example test a bike that is hanging upside down but I want to see if a battery is working on that bike. So because of the pain to get the battery on that upsidedown hanging bike I often put the battery on a stool below and then draw those leads you see from the battery + - to the xt60-connector on the battery bracket up to the down tube of that particular bike.

I had no idea this was a bad idea. But what is the difference between that and just using a cable?
Maybe that is the problem then? That I am using test leads? Too weak diameter or something? What should I use instead?

Weird thing is the display is going on. But maybe the motor is not working because of the test leads then? Too weak diameter(?)

Thing is I am trying to figure out if the battery works with the rest of the system. Before, I put everything on that bike. Battery rail/bracket and so on.

 

[E-HP]

Sounds like a geared hub motor spinning backwards (internally). Hard to tell if it's running smoothly though, but check the watts on the display. If the watts are low (<100W), then it's just a reverse motor situation, so you follow the steps at the bottom of the flow chart on the link below. If the watts are high, then you may need to do more swapping to make it run forward and smoothly.

Testing BLDC motor's Phase Wiring - Hall Sensors and Wiring. - Electricbike.com Ebike Forum

Testing electrical components of a typical hub motor with a digital multi meter. First take a few minuets and look over the wiring going into the motor for cuts, scrapes, missing insulation and other wiring issues or poor connections that should be resolved first. Smell for evidence of...

electricbike.com

 

[Cyclomania]

Sounds like a geared hub motor spinning backwards (internally). Hard to tell if it's running smoothly though, but check the watts on the display. If the watts are low (<100W), then it's just a reverse motor situation, so you follow the steps at the bottom of the flow chart on the link below. If the watts are high, then you may need to do more swapping to make it run forward and smoothly.

Testing BLDC motor's Phase Wiring - Hall Sensors and Wiring. - Electricbike.com Ebike Forum

Testing electrical components of a typical hub motor with a digital multi meter. First take a few minuets and look over the wiring going into the motor for cuts, scrapes, missing insulation and other wiring issues or poor connections that should be resolved first. Smell for evidence of...

electricbike.com

That solved the problem.

How did you know that was the problem so quickly? So I know that until next time I mean and can solve it quickly. And why does things like this happen? Why does the motor get reversed in this way in the first place? Kind of weird to me. Totally illogical that it would happen in the first place ?

I switched the green to green and blue to blue to blue to green and green to blue. And on the five wire connector from the motor to the controller I switched the green to green and yellow to yellow to green to yellow. I saw this on youtube in this clip after you told me it cold be a reversed motor:

 

[glennb]

Intelligence and experience account for E-HP nailing your problem, so don’t believe a word of it if he modestly suggests it was a lucky guess.

As to why the wiring was arse about … that’s an initiation ritual. You passed, congratulations.

 

[Cyclomania]

Now, I need some tips on what connector to use where I now have the leads. I am thinking xt60 from the battery, and xt60 from the controller. What do you guys think? Could also use Wago, right.

Then I would solder where I have made a circle on the images below.

Or alternatively Wago. I like that the wago connector can be easily clicked in and out. Quite easy to use.

 

[Cyclomania]

Also, the backwheel is 250 watts. The controller is like the image here 26. And the battery is 36 volts. That would be around 936 watts maxed out in short bursts right?

Do you think the motor could handle this? It is a bit over volted I guess..

 

[glennb]

Overpowered, yep, and not by a little.

Plugs and sockets aren’t an immediate concern right now, there’s bigger fish to fry.

You have a few options at this point.

1. Get a bigger motor
2. Get a smaller controller
3. Enjoy the fireworks

Now, that’s not entirely true. I know you only just passed the initiation ceremony, but if you want to jump in head first you could make some torque arms, replace the motor phase wires, substitute steel gears for the nylon ones, weld the clutch, swap out the bearings for sealed ones, and fill the motor with ATF.

If you want to ride the bike tomorrow without damaging the motor, however, my advice would be to saw the controller shunt half way through.

Sorry, I’m no help with plug and socket recommendations … I hardwire everything.

 

[Cyclomania]

I have this controller as well. It should be ok. Or what do you guys think?

Now I calculate something like 36*17=612 top current ?

Should work? Controller says only 350 watts rated. But a lot higher when on limit. What do you guys think about that solution? Still too high?

 

[glennb]

Still too high for many 250w motors.

What motor do you have?

 

[Cyclomania]

It is one I bought used. Apparantly it belonged to a Devron Ebike and it should be 250 watts.

Text on it says 50609-BL and 36vok0768 if anyone knows what that means ?

 

[Cyclomania]

Hi

So I have changed a freewheel on my hub motor. But then when I cycled I noticed the wheel were not spinning very well. So I have removed it again to see if I forgot some screw or if something else is wrong.

I am not sure if I forgot something, or if the axle is just loose now?
It should not really be this loose right? This looks kind of wrong, right?

To check what other wheels look like, after freewheel removal, I have also a wheel on the right side, in the video below. And after the freewheel was removed from that one the axle does not act as loose as on the other wheel to the left. But it is more solid. So I guess it should not be like this right? This loose.

Or is it okay to mount the wheel like this?
Have I forgot some screw or something? Or why is it loose like this?4

I am not entirely sure what I a doing So please help.
How can I fix it?

See video below:

IMG_3871

Watch "IMG_3871" on Streamable.

streamable.com

Thanks

 

[amberwolf]

The axle looks broken, probably inside the motor. Since it's a hollow axle for the motor cable to go thru, there is less material and there are easier-to-break places like where the wiring comes out of the axle inside the motor.

Unless you actually disassembled the motor itself to do work inside it, there isn't anything external you could unscrew that would leave the axle like that.

A few geared hubmotors have axles with a plate on the interior end that screws to the main motor core; if you disassembled the motor and left that unscrewed, it could be loose--but it doesn't usually flop around like that.

Either way, to see what's actually wrong, you'll have to open up the motor. If it's a broken axle, you'll probably have to replace the motor (or at least take the core out of an identical new motor to install in your existing wheel/housing) unless you have access to a machine shop/etc to make a new axle--very few companies make spare parts for their motors.

 

[Cyclomania]

The axle looks broken, probably inside the motor. Since it's a hollow axle for the motor cable to go thru, there is less material and there are easier-to-break places like where the wiring comes out of the axle inside the motor.

Unless you actually disassembled the motor itself to do work inside it, there isn't anything external you could unscrew that would leave the axle like that.

A few geared hubmotors have axles with a plate on the interior end that screws to the main motor core; if you disassembled the motor and left that unscrewed, it could be loose--but it doesn't usually flop around like that.

Either way, to see what's actually wrong, you'll have to open up the motor. If it's a broken axle, you'll probably have to replace the motor (or at least take the core out of an identical new motor to install in your existing wheel/housing) unless you have access to a machine shop/etc to make a new axle--very few companies make spare parts for their motors.

Hmm ok.

I have a couple of other 250 watt motors laying around. Would it be worth it to try to open and replace something inside of this motor? Or would this be a relatively extensive job? And probably needs to be from the exact same motor model?

Maybe the easiest thing would be to get a new one. Then again, it would be quite interesting to open and see what is inside and what is wrong with this motor as well.

I have not dissambled this motor. I bought it with some other ebike junk I got from a guy that were selling a lot of ebike stuff during a move he was making.

Either way, when you say core you basically mean the bulk of the entire inside of that motor, correct?
I am going to open it up, when I get home from work today, and post a new video. So stay posted!

Is there anything in particular I should be looking out for inside the motor when I open it?
I don`t have a lot of experience with that but could be nice to learn something and try to find the problem.
I am not sure about the parts inside a hub motor. I think I know what the gears looks like but not the rest.

 

[amberwolf]

I have a couple of other 250 watt motors laying around. Would it be worth it to try to open and replace something inside of this motor? Or would this be a relatively extensive job? And probably needs to be from the exact same motor model?

You'd almost certainly have to replace the entire motor core, axle, stator, gearing, etc, and it's unlikely that any other motor would fit the same way (it's possible, just unlikely).

The only reason to fix it at all is if you need this specific wheel; if you have other usable motors already in the same size wheels, just swap the whole wheel out and it's a lot faster and easier.

Maybe the easiest thing would be to get a new one. Then again, it would be quite interesting to open and see what is inside and what is wrong with this motor as well.

Can't hurt it much at this point.

The six screws on the drive side cover should let you remove the cover itself. Once they're loose the easiest normal way to get it off is to hold the rim and tire in both hands, opposing sides of the wheel, and push the brake-side axle end against a piece of wood (so you don't damage the axle end/threads), until it pushes the cover off enough to lift it up and off the axle.

To get the motor core out, you'd just keep pushing on that other axle end until you have the core out far enough to pull the rest of the way.

There is probably grease on the gearing and inside of the housing; it'll be messy so wear gloves if you want to keep your hands clean.

Somewhere in my DayGlo Avenger thread, there are probably pics of the old Fusin 350W geared hubmotor; it looks very similar to the one you've got, so you can use those pics as a guide for what might be inside yours.


You can also look in my recent posts in the SB Cruiser trike thread for what a GMAC geared hub looks like inside; it's similar in some ways but different in signifcant others.

 

[Cyclomania]

Somewhere in my DayGlo Avenger thread, there are probably pics of the old Fusin 350W geared hubmotor; it looks very similar to the one you've got, so you can use those pics as a guide for what might be inside yours.


You can also look in my recent posts in the SB Cruiser trike thread for what a GMAC geared hub looks like inside; it's similar in some ways but different in signifcant others.

I will try to find those threads. Sounds interesting to see what is inside.

I only have 27,5 motor wheels that I believe are working. But they could be used perhaps? This one is 29.

 

[Cyclomania]

IMG_3893

Watch "IMG_3893" on Streamable.

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71923450081__5B84FA2F-A8E7-4410-8CD1-1D9DB714F591

Watch "71923450081__5B84FA2F-A8E7-4410-8CD1-1D9DB714F591" on Streamable.

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So now I have opened and taken a look. Just check out the videos and images. Could it be that little thing that has gotten loose that has made the axle wobbly? Or do I need to go deeper into the motor perhaps?

Thing is I am not quite sure where it is supposed to be fastened(?.) Close to the arrow I have pointed here below and thereby closer inside the motor. Or kind of inside that hollow space out in that branch that is holding the actual axle?

What is this thing called in english. Maybe someone can post a video or something on how these are suppose to sit when they are in place?

 

[Cyclomania]

So looks like this inside. I have described it in this thread but I cannot find anything wrong in there: Trying to put back wheel on bike - makes strange sound

So I have now opened the motor and checked but I cannot find anything wrong. Though I am not the best mechanic eiter so I don't quite know what to look for. Looks like this anyway. Please let me know what could be wrong? Too little grease on gears or what?

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The above video shows what the motor looks like opened.
Below is also a video of when I opened it further to check the magnets and inner mechanics. Anyone knows why the motor makes that sound? I think the gears look ok but I could be wrong.

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Thanks

 

[amberwolf]

Oh, yeah, that's a broken axle.


If you have a second identical motor you can swap out the axle, or the core, etc., but there's no easy fix for that axle. (you could theoretically weld it back together, and remachine the snap ring groove and bearing surface with a lathe)

The part you're looking at is called a C-clip or Snap ring; colloquially they are sometimes called Jesus clips, because someone might say JESUS WHERE DID IT GO when they accidentally let it spring off the tool pins and it goes flying away, :lol:

The clip fits in a groove around the axle to keep the stator from moving along the axle under side loads, but these grooves are stress risers and can cause failures at that point.

 

[gromike]

His windings look a bit cooked too, do they not?
Regardless, a new motor would be in order.

 

[Chalo]

The clip fits in a groove around the axle to keep the stator from moving along the axle under side loads, but these grooves are stress risers and can cause failures at that point.

It sometimes seems like Chinese motor manufacturers can do electrical engineering, but are allergic to mechanical engineering. Hence snap ring grooves at the worst places, flatted threads to transmit torque, super narrow flange spacing, etc.

 

[Cyclomania]

Hmm so this is probably unsaveable? Or if not, a lot of work that could be spent elsewhere. I think I am going to seal this motor and go on to do something else bicycle-related. Maybe if I have a lot of time in the future I will come back to this thread to try to to actually weld the whole thing like Amberwolf talks about. But that is only if I get the time over.

Maybe some of the components in this motor could be used in another motor that goes bad in the future? So dumb thing to throw it away maybe?

 

[Chalo]

It's likely cheaper to replace than repair. It's likely more profitable (in terms of ability building) to fix it.

 

[99t4]

The part you're looking at is called a C-clip or Snap ring; colloquially they are sometimes called Jesus clips, because someone might say JESUS WHERE DID IT GO when they accidentally let it spring off the tool pins and it goes flying away, :lol:

AW you are too funny!!!