VW 'Volkswagen Uses Software to increase Pollution'

[speedmd]

I thought emissions controls tended to reduce engine efficiency, but maybe they just reduce power.

It is not a simple solution in diesels. They do not run a standard air / fuel ratio like a spark ignition set up. They can run extremely lean. Good for economy, but bad when running hot (Putting the ponies out) as the excess oxygen is key to making NOx. Cooled exhaust gasses can be fed back in, injection pressure increased some, but for anything needing significant power, you need to add fuel without too much O2. These rev high and so the combustion chamber gets hot while making this power so adding any any extra O2 makes large amounts NOx regardless what you do to the fuel supply then. Picture cresting a hill, everything is hot, fuel is cut back but the motor is still pumping air through it.

 

[speedmd]

Maybe VW should be forced to swap out all these diesels for Golf EVs ?

That would be the best solution and most likely keep many customers as long as the cars are comparable. They are most likely going to need to buy back or retro fit what is out there.

 

[rsilvers]

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2010/01/the-truth-about-clean-diesels-adblue-is-freaking-expensive/

The cost of the fluid reduces the savings from having diesel to begin with. So VW was probably trying to save consumers (and hence make the care more appealing) from $300 fees to refill the tank as often.

 

[speedmd]

Home depot has the stuff cheap. http://www.homedepot.com/p/BlueDEF-2-5-gal-Diesel-Exhaust-Fluid-DEF002/204804290

 

[The fingers]

$10.94 @ Sams Club.

 

[Nehmo]

... check...parts with a measuring stick?...

That struck me as a literary device rather than a literal description. Business people I know, who have respectable positions but are not close to where this guy was on the corporate ladder, follow a code of behavior when it comes to physical work. Even if the tool & job are right in front of them, rather than do the work themselves, by principle, they'll summon someone in overalls to do it for them.
Another possibility is an outsider walked in on Winterkorn while he was beating a subordinate with a meter-stick for complying with pollution regulations, and the outsider asked what he was doing. He, being a genius in public relations, cleverly replied, "Ich checking die uniformity der parts from aus production line!" The naive outsider published the little fib, and the gullible public ran with it.

 

[Punx0r]

I would do a Volt with a diesel-generator in it. Why use gasoline when the engine runs at a constant speed?

My guess: lung cancer from micro-particulates, smog from NOx, U.S. customer preference for gasoline and Noise, Vibration and Harshness. It'd be a shame to have a smooth, quiet electric drivetrain and then a shaking, knocking unbalanced 3-cylinder hatebox rattling away.

 

[speedmd]

GM vice chair on the subject does a good summary of the mess. http://www.cnbc.com/2015/09/25/vw-faces-about-the-worst-situation-ex-gm-exec.html

 

[rsilvers]

Mazda's rotary has no torque, but it may be good for charging batteries. Or a turbine.

 

[rsilvers]

$10.94 @ Sams Club.

That and the Home Depot deal are awesome. That is 11% of the cost of having the dealer do it.

 

[rsilvers]

Seems like the only reason why the VW diesel was practical was due to the cheating. Or else it would cost more and have lower performance, and at the higher price, no one would buy it. So diesel just died in the US.

During his time at GM, Lutz said he was constantly asking his engineers how Volkswagen could make diesel engines perform so well and pass environmental tests. "They said, 'We can't answer that question.'"
He said: "Honda asked the same question. They couldn't figure it out either because with near identical engines and hardware from the same suppliers, they could not get themselves to pass."
Lutz said the extra expenses associated with diesel engines basically don't pay off in better gas mileage. "You've got about a $2,000 to $3,000 cost penalty for the engine. And then you've got another $4,000 to 5,000 cost penalty for all the emissions equipment."
"Diesel is being legislated out of existence because the emission requirements for diesel are becoming so onerous," he argued. "Diesels almost no longer make any sense."

 

[speedmd]

Buy back and Crushers are the answer! 11 million, a good start. The sooner the better.

 

[spinningmagnets]

NPR said on todays radio program that at worst, the VWs were generating 5 times the NOx in "fuel economy/power" mode as compared to when they are in "legal" pollution mode.

SpeedMD, I really liked your post at the top of page 3, but the 30-40 times pollution sounded a little high, where was that from?

Personally, I love the idea of a bio-diesel hybrid. If the engine is built to run a constant RPM when called upon, it can be made to run very smooth and very quiet...and very clean. With the solid state batteries (SSD) that should be commercially available in 2020, the diesel would only run rarely on very long trips. My son has a Chevy Volt, and he purposefully takes it on a longer trip once a month to ensure the gasoline and engine doesnt go bad, since he lives so close to work.

 

[rsilvers]

Chevy should program the engine to run at least 15 minutes a week, like my natural-gas generator does. Maybe they could do that 15 minutes a month since there is no battery that must be kept charged by the engine.

 

[speedmd]

Spinning, it has been posted on many of the test threads and very real that they would run these levels of NOx when you understand what is going on in them. Leaving in a few, but will bookmark them for you when I return. The diesel is a huge air compressor /pump basically. They are super efficient which hurts them in this regard. They also spin very high revs. When running a light/ no throttle, lets say down the highway, they are internal air choppers. They crush the hell out of N2/O2 atmosphere into a whole host of dangerous stuff when presented with tiny amounts of residue fuel and make lots of NOx. It goes terribly wrong when they are hot like they are driving hard down the road. Only way to get close to the spec is to spray micro amounts of urea on the oxides and break them into raw nitrogen and O2 which ends up as water vapor once exiting. Don't kid yourself, this is real bad for VW and all of it's customers as well as all diesels as this will most likely be the beginnings of a slow and painful death to them all. When I ride my bike, there is nothing I hate more than a yahoo in his garbage can size exhausted truck passing me blowing out tons of black smoke while I am going out hard. This may be a blessing for all of us.

 

[rsilvers]

I wanted Diesel to succeed, but this explains why Honda and Toyota never sold them in the US. So I guess they are not viable if they must be clean.

 

[spinningmagnets]

Thanks speedmd, I appreciate you posting those links, I need the correct info...

 

[LockH]

"Volkswagen's cheating engines can't be easily fixed (vw)"
https://www.yahoo.com/autos/s/volkswagens-cheating-engines-cant-easily-fixed-vw-225206095.html

Includes:

... more than 50 class action lawsuits have been filed around the country and that number could reach into the hundreds.

 

[The fingers]

Dieselgate. :lol: At least I've yet to see one rollin' coal on a Prius. "Clean Diesel" technology should be investigated industry-wide, I doubt if VW is the only cheater. VW should provide free conversions to electric with all the perks.

 

[rsilvers]

Shares in BMW (BAMXY) slumped 8% to their lowest level in two years after a German magazine reported that at least one model had breached European pollution limits by a huge margin in road tests. Auto Bild said the BMW X3 xDrive 20d had produced 11 times as much nitrogen oxide as permitted in independent road tests conducted by the International Council on Clean Transportation.

 

[Icewrench]

http://www.bmwblog.com/2015/09/25/auto-bild-retracts-allegations-regarding-bmw-diesel-emissions/


Auto Bild retracts allegations regarding BMW diesel emissions.

 

[rsilvers]

So Auto Bild's incorrect story lowered BMW's value by 4 billion dollars?

 

[ziltoid81]

This whole "clean diesel" joke is hilarious.
Years ago they came with these filter crap.
The ressources you need to build these are more consuming and polluting than the diesel running without these filters.
The motor management gives the engine more diesel to run these filters properly.
Here in germany theyre crazy about this whole shit.
Its just good for making money.
For some years we have these "green zones".
Diesel cars must have some little signs on the windshield.
Green when you have a filter, yellow and red without.
For example......your cant drive in a "green"area when you have only a yellow plate/sign.
But 50meters away you can go crazy with a car that only got a red plate.
Because the air will stop at street xyz.

Another problem was, that many people sold their good running and very little consuming car cause they were forced to get a new one with a green plate.
To produce a new car, you waste a lot more ressources and create much more pollution.

Thats a big joke, no one cares what is really better for the environment, its only about money.

We are wasting so much ressources in our western lifestyle but a little more nox is a big problem?

I mean the cheating was wrong, but it has nothing to do with the environment, its about money like always.

 

[nutnspecial]

So right!!!!
". . . about money." -control imo, money is just part of the control, it goes much deeper

Create the theatre, create the problem, control the argument, get the outcome desired in the guise of 'best for all'
This whole thing is just a fraction, Hegellian dialectic

 

[Punx0r]

There are two issues with ICE vehicles:

1) Energy used and CO2 emitted - a problem with global effects
2) Air pollution (NOx, micro-particulates) - a problem with local effects

The localised nature of 2) makes it a much higher priority for most people and makes it much, much easier to control (you can ban smoggy vehicles from your city to your benefit but you cannot stop China emitting lots of CO2 and changing your climate).

The current emphasis on vehicle emissions is shifting from CO2 emissions/fuel economy to clean air. Because of this we were already looking at the beginning of the end for mass ownership of diesel cars (in the UK taxes are starting to be cranked up on them to discourage ownership), but this scandal is likely to rapidly accelerate that. Emissions standards are only going to increase and it turns out manufacturers are struggling to meet the current standards. The near future is small-capacity, turbocharged direct-injection petrol engines.