Hillhater
100 TW
...That may not be The best solution !Punx0r said:
http://www.transportenvironment.org/press/new-petrol-engines-cause-more-air-pollution-dirty-diesels
VW 'Volkswagen Uses Software to increase Pollution'
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- Start date
LockH
1 PW
Hehe... Were I King, I would require that all Infernal Exploding Engines exhaust into the vehicle cabin (rather than a pipe exiting outside). Butt I sorta wonder what's the record length of time for inhaling exhaust fumes... before passing out or something. But have been unable to find this info anywhere so far. :?
Icewrench
10 kW
From this article http://www.komonews.com/news/national/VW-facing-tsunami-of-legal-trouble-in-emissions-scandal-329696491.html
"It's not the first time Volkswagen has been accused of cheating on emissions testing by the EPA. In July 1973, the agency found that VW had installed temperature-sensitive devices that turned off emissions controls on about 25,000 Fastback, Squareback and bus models. The company agreed to remove the devices and eventually settled with the Justice Department, paying a $120,000 penalty."
"It's not the first time Volkswagen has been accused of cheating on emissions testing by the EPA. In July 1973, the agency found that VW had installed temperature-sensitive devices that turned off emissions controls on about 25,000 Fastback, Squareback and bus models. The company agreed to remove the devices and eventually settled with the Justice Department, paying a $120,000 penalty."
Hillhater
100 TW
Sadly, there are far too many Corporations, organisations, sports teams, individuals, business leaders, etc ( and of course Politicians ). ..
... That get to the peaks of their success by using varying degrees of "cheating" ...or at least bending the rules.
A common saying is..
"The closer to the top of the piramid , the more likely the involvement in corruption"
..and also
" we only ever see the tip of the Iceberg ! "
Examples ?
Nixon.
Armstrong
Nike
DeLorean
1000's of bank/financial scams
Etc
... That get to the peaks of their success by using varying degrees of "cheating" ...or at least bending the rules.
A common saying is..
"The closer to the top of the piramid , the more likely the involvement in corruption"
..and also
" we only ever see the tip of the Iceberg ! "
Examples ?
Nixon.
Armstrong
Nike
DeLorean
1000's of bank/financial scams
Etc
speedmd
10 MW
ICCT tests showed certain models of VW's 15 -35 times the limit.
http://www.theicct.org/news/epas-notice-violation-clean-air-act-volkswagen-press-statement
http://www.theicct.org/real-world-exhaust-emissions-modern-diesel-cars
Great white paper on the topic.
http://www.theicct.org/sites/default/files/publications/ICCT_PEMS-study_diesel-cars_20141013.pdf
http://www.theicct.org/news/epas-notice-violation-clean-air-act-volkswagen-press-statement
http://www.theicct.org/real-world-exhaust-emissions-modern-diesel-cars
Great white paper on the topic.
http://www.theicct.org/sites/default/files/publications/ICCT_PEMS-study_diesel-cars_20141013.pdf
[edit to correct mis-statement] It was announced that diesel car models from all the manufacturers would be road tested, and Audi confesses before they get caught.
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-34377443
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-34377443
speedmd
10 MW
Sticking owners with the headaches is just adding insult to injury here. They should be talking a buy back. No other way I can see to fix it. Time will tell. They just need to be hit over the head a few more weeks.
The fingers
10 TW
If carmakers are cheating to allow diesels to run dirty, gasoline powered vehicles are suspect also. 
speedmd
10 MW
Germany is giving them a week for a binding plan on fix or may ban them from roads. http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/news/a26842/germany-could-ban-28-million-diesel-vws-from-its-roads/
I can see someone like Elon Musk buying the entire company for pennies on the dollar.
I can see someone like Elon Musk buying the entire company for pennies on the dollar.
Hillhater
100 TW
That will never happen, there are not enough authorised facilities or testers available to do it in a sensible time frame.spinningmagnets said:
All vehicles eventually get tested as a routine during the compulsory annual roadworthy testing... Except new cars !
Pointless anyway, as diesels are easy to reprogramme in your driveway !
There would have to be " random" roadside emissions tests.....just like Drink driving.
The fingers said:If carmakers are cheating to allow diesels to run dirty, gasoline powered vehicles are suspect also.
There is an existing, parallel issue with petrol and diesel both showing a large variation in fuel economy between real-world driving compared to when given the official economy test in the lab. The accusation is less blatant cheating as been going on, with manufacturers increasing tuning the cars specifically to do unrealistically well on the test. The worst offenders are hybrids (especially plug-ins), as they're permitted to deplete their battery during the test cycle
I hope VW get burned and burned badly and the other manufacturers doing the same thing as well. VW have deliberately killed between 1,400 and 5,800 people of all ages just for pure greed (in actuality probably twice that). Bastards. All the fines in the world won't be big large enough to bring those people back from the dead.
Hopefully, the death of diesel is just around the corner and in a decade or so it will be the turn of petrol.
Hopefully, the death of diesel is just around the corner and in a decade or so it will be the turn of petrol.
Hillhater
100 TW
Joseph C. said:
Careful what you wish for !
If there were no diesel, much of our current infrastructure grinds to a halt !
Nearly all heavy transport, road and rail, is diesel powered, and without that we loose not just transport, but goods (food, and all produce ) as well as the ability to move the coal to the power stations that charge our batteries, keep our lights on and keep the beer cool !
Switching all that infrastructure from diesel to some other fuel, is no simple or quick job
speedmd
10 MW
Its is not going away quickly. We have few alternatives that are more efficient in piston form. The big trucks, heavy equipment, locomotive and ships turn much lower rpm and much easier to stay away from hot / lean running conditions than the small car units. Numbers are very small in comparison also. They also have much more real-estate for filters and emission related hardware if it is even required. Off road, rail and seaboard will not be effected anytime soon.
They are not going to test every single car on the road but will test significant samples from every single non commercial model I would suspect.
They are not going to test every single car on the road but will test significant samples from every single non commercial model I would suspect.
Hillhater
100 TW
speedmd said:
..wot ?...trucks, busses, vans, taxis civil/construction equipment, etc...small numbers compared to diesel cars ? I think Joseph means the death of mass-use of diesel-powered personal cars. It might be a surprise to those in countries where car-buying habits are differ, but diesel cars have become very popular in the UK (I suspect most of Europe is similar) - it was several years ago when the point was reached where more than half of new cars sold were diesel. Second-hand diesels are also more valuable, old petrol cars are more likely to be scrapped in a usable condition rather than ran into the ground.
Diesel-power would obviously have to remain for trains and heavy road transport. But these vehicles are especially well-suited to having advanced emissions control systems. There are already emissions-based restrictions on heavy vehicles entering some cities and many diesel trucks already have urea-injection to allow lean burn, which improves fuel economy and prevent soot emission while eliminating NOx.
Diesel-power would obviously have to remain for trains and heavy road transport. But these vehicles are especially well-suited to having advanced emissions control systems. There are already emissions-based restrictions on heavy vehicles entering some cities and many diesel trucks already have urea-injection to allow lean burn, which improves fuel economy and prevent soot emission while eliminating NOx.
Eskimo
1 kW
We have a bad refugee crisis here. Students and elders are thrown out of their facilities to get room. Finland as it was is gone.
VW? Screw that. Tesla will win. Desparate attempt to stop electric cars, that"s what it was.
VW? Screw that. Tesla will win. Desparate attempt to stop electric cars, that"s what it was.
speedmd
10 MW
Hillhater said:speedmd said:
Yes the numbers are small in comparison. I am not including taxis, vans and personal pickups. These and all local bus type vehicles should be electric ASAP. Who would fight for the stinky bus to be kept in cities. Locomotives are very few and work wise pound for pound a tiny issue. Ships can scrub all exhaust into the water as many do now. Construction equipment is used very little by comparison and never takes a joy ride to the park never mind that the numbers are small. They are non issues and most parts of the world exempt as are farm tractors and other work equipment. That is not what we are talking about here. Regardless they are working hard when doing the job and can be tuned to run cleaner than the little one that is asked to spin fast while not working hard percentage wise in regards to NOx when made like VW.
Yes, I was referring to light transport. There is no need for diesel in anything other than trains, buses, lorries and boats/ships. The cost of refining modern diesel is nearly the same as petrol - eroding the argument for cheaper fuel.
Some of those VWs were putting out the same amount of emissions as ten Ford 150s - that's madness.
Some of those VWs were putting out the same amount of emissions as ten Ford 150s - that's madness.
Chalo
100 TW
Joseph C. said:
Ten times the NOx, maybe. But a third as much CO2 and I expect less polycyclic hydrocarbon, CO, etc. Diesels are inherently cleaner than gasoline engines in most regards. Keep in mind that the added NOx emissions were a result of tuning for much better fuel efficiency, therefore less exhaust emitted overall.
American emissions limits have always looked at pollutant concentrations only, and disregarded the gross quantity of those pollutants on a per minute or per mile basis. I believe that's intentional, to favor American gas guzzlers.
bigmoose
1 MW
Joseph C. said:
As I understand it from years ago, crude sort of splits near 50/50 with respect to light ends (gasoline) and distillate (diesel, home heating #2, Jet A, kerosene) when you run an efficient distillation process. You can shift that spread a bit, but you can't go 90% gasoline, or 90% distillate. So that means you have to get rid of the "extra" stuff.
As it was told to me, north america is focused on light ends, and the EU is diesel dominate. I was once told that that split/focus would likely remain. Add to that the fact that most north American homes had attached garages, and the diesel start up was smokey and smelly.
As a side note I have a 2015 Tahoe (big Iron), 5.3 L V8 that runs as a 4. 11.5 to 1 compression ratio with direct cylinder fuel injection. Went to see the kids in Kentucky last weekend, and hit a sweet spot doing 65 where I got 29.6 MPG over a 25 mile course. Gas engines have come a very, very long way.
speedmd
10 MW
Direct gas injection and good electronic control of it changes the landscape in a big way. No good reason we can not creep up in compression ratios now to reach near diesel efficiency when power is needed in remote locations.
As far as using the diesel fuel wisely, my home boiler claims a 93% efficiency turning it to heat /hot water with rather primitive controls.
True that the bigger the beast the bigger the exhaust footprint. Not so sure about the inherently cleaner part. Just follow any of them and smell for yourself. Who am I to believe, you or my lying nose.
Best way to reduce the foot print is weight reduction and aerodynamics straight across the board. Registrations fees by the pound. Ebikes /motos under 100 pounds always free.
As far as using the diesel fuel wisely, my home boiler claims a 93% efficiency turning it to heat /hot water with rather primitive controls.
True that the bigger the beast the bigger the exhaust footprint. Not so sure about the inherently cleaner part. Just follow any of them and smell for yourself. Who am I to believe, you or my lying nose.
Best way to reduce the foot print is weight reduction and aerodynamics straight across the board. Registrations fees by the pound. Ebikes /motos under 100 pounds always free.
Chalo
100 TW
I've always favored registration fees by weight, but I think they should be progressive, with each added pound costing you more than the previous one. That's sort of the way most household utility bills work, with a lower rate for lower consumption.
Diesels are cleaner inasmuch as they feature inherently more complete combustion than spark ignited engines. They're sootier for sure, and they stink, but their exhaust is poor in partially burned hydrocarbons compared to gas cars. Carbon monoxide doesn't smell, you know? Diesels got catalytic converters much later, because there wasn't nearly as much work for them to do.
When I get smacked in the bike lane by fumes that make me want to go home and lie down, it's always gas. Gasoline cars have the ability to run super dirty. Diesels tend to get complete combustion or none at all.
Diesels are cleaner inasmuch as they feature inherently more complete combustion than spark ignited engines. They're sootier for sure, and they stink, but their exhaust is poor in partially burned hydrocarbons compared to gas cars. Carbon monoxide doesn't smell, you know? Diesels got catalytic converters much later, because there wasn't nearly as much work for them to do.
When I get smacked in the bike lane by fumes that make me want to go home and lie down, it's always gas. Gasoline cars have the ability to run super dirty. Diesels tend to get complete combustion or none at all.
speedmd
10 MW
Nasty old carburated gas engines are stinky for certain. Fortunately, most everything newer is O2 sensored and runs reasonably clean if programmed correctly. If it is not it should be held to limited use. Parades only, or to and from the race track or show. Old / missing muffler/ brakes moto Bikes included.
Diesels can run very poorly also. Low injection pressures or compression or dirty / worn injectors make them black belching pigs. Nice thing is you can spot them visually and just not follow them down the road.
Diesels can run very poorly also. Low injection pressures or compression or dirty / worn injectors make them black belching pigs. Nice thing is you can spot them visually and just not follow them down the road.
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