White Industries 8mm pitch belt pulley freewheels coming? :)

[recumpence]

We continue looking at every option. This project is being handled by a supplier for FFR trikes with my consulting on the project. Admittedly, they are doing the bulk of the work on it, though.

I will check with them and see if this has been back-burnered, or if it is still moving forward.

Matt

 

[rodgah]

anything happen with this Matt?

 

[recumpence]

Hey RodG, LONG TIME NO HEAR!

The shop working on this is FFR Trikes' home machineshop. They have been distracted preparing for Pike's Peak. I will ask and see what the status is.........

Matt

 

[MitchJi]

Hi,

Multiple announcements with photo's and prices ($275 gulp) but I can't find anything on the White Industries web site.

Here are two:

http://bicyclepaper.com/news/6095--...-Industries-Partner-on-New-Freewheel-Sprocket

Gates Carbon Drive and White Industries Partner on New Freewheel Sprocket
Turn your belt drive fixie into a singlespeed freewheel with the Gates Carbon Drive™ CDX™ Freewheel Sprocket.
February 27, 2013

Denver, Colo. – Gates Carbon Drive has partnered with White Industries to create the CDX Freewheel, a screw-on freewheel sprocket that marries the clean, quiet and strong Gates belt drive system with White’s high performance and strength.

Manufactured in partnership with White Industries, the Gates Carbon Drive CDX Freewheel brings singlespeed hub reliability and performance to a new level. The CDX Freewheel, comprised of a Carbon Drive CenterTrack™ sprocket mated to White’s sealed bearing freewheel system, features:
• A high-load capacity sealed bearing cartridge that is easy to clean and service.

• A heat-treated 8620 alloy steel body that is case hardened and nickel plated.

The CDX Freewheel eliminates the oscillation and looseness that is common among some freewheels on the market. Simply screw it on your fixed hub for the ultimate in belt drive performance.

“This partnership with White Industries provides bike builders and consumers with more options for running a Carbon Drive system,” says Todd Sellden, director of Gates Carbon Drive Systems. “It also exemplifies how Gates is eager to collaborate with industry partners to integrate Carbon Drive with other leading components in the bike industry.”

CDX Freewheel is built on the ENO freewheel platform from White Industries, regarded as an industry leader in freewheel components. “More and more of our customers are interested in running Gates Carbon Drive on their freewheel bikes,” says Doug White, founder of White Industries. “When we decided to team up with Gates the goal was to create a belt drive freewheel that is durable, reliable, and easily maintained. The sealed cartridge bearing is impervious to mud, grit and water, and is easy to install.”

Like all Gates Carbon Drive belts, the Carbon Drive CDX Freewheel is made in the USA. It comes initially in a 22-tooth size and costs $275. Purchase the Gates Carbon Drive CDX Freewheel by contacting carbondrive@gates.com.

For results and beautiful photos of the belt drive bike design contest from NAHBS vist blog.carbondrivesystems.com/?p=4644.

http://www.bicycleretailer.com/new-...es-and-white-collaborate-belt-drive-freewheel

Gates and White collaborate on belt drive freewheel -- Published February 28, 2013

DENVER, CO (BRAIN) — Gates Carbon Drive is collaborating with White Industries to create the CDX Freewheel, a screw-on freewheel sprocket for the Gates belt drive system.

The CDX Freewheel mates a Carbon Drive CenterTrack sprocket to White’s ENO sealed bearing freewheel system,which features a high-load capacity sealed bearing cartridge and a heat-treated 8620 alloy steel body that is case hardened and nickel plated.

The CDX Freewheel was designed to eliminate the oscillation and looseness common among some single speed freewheels on the market.

“This partnership with White Industries provides bike builders and consumers with more options for running a Carbon Drive system,” said Todd Sellden, director of Gates Carbon Drive Systems. “It also exemplifies how Gates is eager to collaborate with industry partners to integrate Carbon Drive with other leading components in the bike industry.”

The Carbon Drive CDX Freewheel is made in the USA. It comes initially in a 22-tooth size and costs $275.

More information: carbondrive@gates.com.

 

[MitchJi]

Hi Matt,

Hopefully Gates picked up the tab for R & D instead of Recumpence Industries .
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=49040

White Industries Introduces 22T Belt Freewheel?!

Multiple announcements with photo's and prices ($275 gulp) but I can't find anything on the White Industries web site....

February 27, 2013

Denver, Colo. – Gates Carbon Drive has partnered with White Industries to create the CDX Freewheel, a screw-on freewheel sprocket that marries the clean, quiet and strong Gates belt drive system with White’s high performance and strength.

 

[recumpence]

Funny you would resurect this thread at this time.

Just today I received a phone call from one of the guys I know who is working on this. We have a company that is quoting us (finally) on making the outer ring of a White freewheel with a 22 tooth 8mm pitch profile.

Matt

 

[MitchJi]

Hi Matt,

Funny you would resurrect this thread at this time.

Just today I received a phone call from one of the guys I know who is working on this. We have a company that is quoting us (finally) on making the outer ring of a White freewheel with a 22 tooth 8mm pitch profile.

Most of the online announcements are dated end of Feb 2013. I just happened to do a google search. Do you think the timing is a coincidence or are they selling white/gates parts?

Purchase the Gates Carbon Drive CDX Freewheel by contacting carbondrive@gates.com

More information: carbondrive@gates.com

Before you respond to that call I'd contact gates for pricing and availability.

 

[bionicon]

any updates here i am looking for a 22tooth freewheel cog?

 

[recumpence]

Nope. We ran into roadblock after roadblock. So, this project died.

Matt

 

[Hummina Shadeeba]

What torque were you anticipating the belt seeing and I’m trying to figure what belt size I need and looking here:
https://www.sdp-si.com/D265/PDF/D265T146.pdf

..it seems everything on a bike or powered bike isn’t adequate. On the other hand people I know who use a common narrow belt on a bicycle have never had to replace it after years

 

[Chalo]

On the other hand people I know who use a common narrow belt on a bicycle have never had to replace it after years

They probably ride it a few times in a few years, then. I've seen a few bike belt drives et up after very modest mileage. Fixed some with replacement parts only to have them fail again quickly.

Belt drives have had a very long time to prove themselves for bicycle use. They still haven't.

 

[Hummina Shadeeba]

On the other hand people I know who use a common narrow belt on a bicycle have never had to replace it after years

They probably ride it a few times in a few years, then. I've seen a few bike belt drives et up after very modest mileage. Fixed some with replacement parts only to have them fail again quickly.

Belt drives have had a very long time to prove themselves for bicycle use. They still haven't.

People I know who use belts on a fixed gear cut and reweld the frame with the belt in it. It lasts that long that they do that and don’t replace them.

 

[Chalo]

I've seen a few bike belt drives et up after very modest mileage. Fixed some with replacement parts only to have them fail again quickly.

People I know who use belts on a fixed gear cut and reweld the frame with the belt in it. It lasts that long that they do that and don’t replace them.

I'm sure it helps to use fixed gearing, because that allows adequate belt tension without destroying the freewheel or freehub body. Also better alignment because the rear pulley can't slop on its ratchet bearing.

Fixed gearing went away over 100 years ago because it's dangerous and it sucks to ride. If that's the key to making belt drive work, I'm afraid belt drives will remain a not very interesting curiosity.

 

[Hummina Shadeeba]

I've seen a few bike belt drives et up after very modest mileage. Fixed some with replacement parts only to have them fail again quickly.

People I know who use belts on a fixed gear cut and reweld the frame with the belt in it. It lasts that long that they do that and don’t replace them.

I'm sure it helps to use fixed gearing, because that allows adequate belt tension without destroying the freewheel or freehub body. Also better alignment because the rear pulley can't slop on its ratchet bearing.

Fixed gearing went away over 100 years ago because it's dangerous and it sucks to ride. If that's the key to making belt drive work, I'm afraid belt drives will remain a not very interesting curiosity.

Don’t all belts on bikes run a fixed line as if fixed gear? Id think if anything a fixed gear would put more stress on the belt as they skid to brake. ( Sounding a little curmudgeonly with ur views on fixed gears and I think they might be an advantage in some situations like hills where it pulls through the dead spot.) But I don’t have a fixed gear bike these days and making a “fixed gear” mid drive w belt to freewheeling cranks n chain to track hub with big chainring threaded on and two-way throttle. What u think? The calculator to figure the belt size shows much wider belts than seen on a bike.
A #40 chain isn’t appropriate for 3k rpm.

 

[Chalo]

People I know who use belts on a fixed gear cut and reweld the frame with the belt in it. It lasts that long that they do that and don’t replace them.

I'm sure it helps to use fixed gearing, because that allows adequate belt tension without destroying the freewheel or freehub body. Also better alignment because the rear pulley can't slop on its ratchet bearing.

Don’t all belts on bikes run a fixed line as if fixed gear?

The difference with fixed gear is no freewheel. The freewheel is what gets killed by belt tension. Also, freewheel bearings tend to be a little wobbly, which is fine for their intended application where they only spin when there's no tension on them. But when you jack up the tension so that the belt works adequately, you not only ruin and disassemble the freewheel, but it tilts on its bearing towards the belt tension, throwing the belt engagement out of alignment.

And yes, fixed gears suck. That's why normal people gave them up at the beginning of the twentieth century. The only thing they're good at is causing avoidable accidents and injuries.

If you're running a belt at 3000 RPM, there's not a lot of useful comparison to make with pedal belt drives. The only takeaway is don't put a freewheel under belt tension.

 

[Hummina Shadeeba]

Running a belt with a freewheel is my plan and am using freewheeling cranks. I got this: https://sickbikeparts.com/front-freewheel-heavy-duty/
And they sell an even more heavy duty version I didn’t get. And I got one of these super cheap ones too so will see what happens

 

[Chalo]

Running a belt with a freewheel is my plan and am using freewheeling cranks.

Plan to have your freewheels come apart, then. Belts need more tension than freewheels can tolerate.

 

[Hummina Shadeeba]

Running a belt with a freewheel is my plan and am using freewheeling cranks.

Plan to have your freewheels come apart, then. Belts need more tension than freewheels can tolerate.

surely a bearing of the size in a freewheel can be made that can survive. we will see.

 

[DogDipstick]

Running a belt with a freewheel is my plan and am using freewheeling cranks.

Plan to have your freewheels come apart, then. Belts need more tension than freewheels can tolerate.

What about if you could custom machine a needle bearing sprag clutch freewheel ( ie, not ratchet style, but needle bearing sprag ) ? Mebbe mebbe that could take more load? I have sprags and races here in 12mmID 34mmOD ect ect. All kinds of those... that can take upwards of 14kW ( from RC).

For some reason I want a belt drive freewheel too. I want a final drive to be belt driven on a off road mid drive.


Does such a thing exist? A stronger better alternative? Sprags are use in auto transmissions all the time under significant forces.

Coincidentally, the LIghtning Rods Mid drive, uses a belt, on a freewheel, for highpower transmission ( well, rpm) under a lateral loading. You know ho people love those things. No complaints from owners of those things about the belt hurting the freewheel. Just brags about power and how great of a drive it is. I have one sitting on the table. Right here. It does not use an extreme tension, though, the belt cogs help keep it in place.

^ShRuG^

 

[Chalo]

Belts need more tension than freewheels can tolerate.

What about if you could custom machine a needle bearing sprag clutch freewheel ( ie, not ratchet style, but needle bearing sprag ) ? Mebbe mebbe that could take more load? I have sprags and races here in 12mmID 34mmOD ect ect. All kinds of those... that can take upwards of 14kW ( from RC).

Sure, a CSK clutch bearing or Torrington needle roller clutch with support bearings would be able to do what a regular freewheel mechanism can't, in terms of overrunning without damage when there's belt tension.

The reasons these aren't used much in bike freewheels are 1) they cost more and 2) they can't transmit bicycle sized torque reliably unless they're bigger than the ratchets we use now.

For Hummina's application there is one thing in his favor: all the torque on that stage will be coming from a motor. Motor torque is easier to quantify (and steadier) than pedal torque. If you stay within spec, the clutch will probably hold up fine.

 

[Hummina Shadeeba]

The clutch feature isn’t going to be used other than the very rare times I pedal. Took the springs out of the freewheel and can get the teeth to engage if I drop the bike a foot, or maybe will remove the teeth as well and stick something in when needed..quieter.

Lately thinking of starting with a #25 or #35 chain since better for speed, cheap, and most importantly it’s narrow and can fit the two chains and get a good chain line (the fixed “track” cog leaves little room to adjust as do the freewheeling cranks)


But tell me ur overall impression of my plan and I’m paying for these frames now: Horizontal dropouts, freewheeling crankset, custom made carrier for chainrings mounted on track hub, two-way throttle n regen, custom hub with big bearings in 83100 motor, extra tube to mount the battery.

 

[Hummina Shadeeba]

Is it the ratchet that dies with these freewheels or the bearing from being side loaded? I don’t understand why maybe 10lbs of tension through a belt would wear out the freewheel bearing quickly or is it side loading with a belt or chain that’s the problem?

 

[liveforphysics]

Standard chain bicycle freewheels use the paws engaging as a direct torque transfer feature when under tension pedaling, and then the edge of a cup of a ball bearing (often raceless) on just one side. This is fine if the only time it feels loads the paws are engaged to transfer it.

If I'm not mistaken though, freewheeling exist that are supported by full compliment sealed ball bearing inserts on each side of the ratchet paws track, which should carry the belt tension preload without issues (hopefully). The Eno freewheels if I remember correctly used a single sealed insert ball bearing and a bushing surface (which might also wear well).

 

[Hummina Shadeeba]

seems the best available:
https://sickbikeparts.com/front-freewheel-ultra-heavy-duty/

i guess if using two cogs on a freewheel as a jackshaft its best to have the two equidistant from the freewheel center mounting holes.

 

[Chalo]

seems the best available:
https://sickbikeparts.com/front-freewheel-ultra-heavy-duty/

i guess if using two cogs on a freewheel as a jackshaft its best to have the two equidistant from the freewheel center mounting holes.

Better to mount them whichever way places them most directly over the bearings in the freewheel. The White Industries freewheel has a much better than usual bearing in it, but it only has one bearing rather than two rows like a conventional freewheel. You definitely want to get both sprockets as close to the centerline of that single bearing as you can.