Why I don't like lithium batteries

[Ebikes4Real]

Luna does build many of their packs in the USA and have done so for years. No we cant keep up with demand and moved hard case production to asia using large commercial pack manufacturers and using our cells to ensure authenticity.


Our headquarters is located in the same city as Space-x by the way and have a working relationship with them more than i am allowed or willing to say. There is a reason why most of our cells are panasonic lately..... and i look forward to the day that our batteries can be made completely in the usa...from cell to pack and others (in high places) share my vision.

And speaking of space x, building a battery pack in house in not rocket science.... it is not hard....it is not that labor intensive if you have proper machinery. Of course its cheaper to build in china...but you have the big problem its hard to get authentic 18650 cells in china and its getting harder to transport them as packs, and of course there is quality control.. The logistics of transporting is the hard part and when you think of that you start to get into the real game.

Assembling an 18650 pack is something most es people can do and we all know its not that hard. Its the components that are hard....a good bms is hard... and nothing compared to Making a proper lithium 18650 CELL...and something china has not been able to do...and is something that has been left to the koreans and the japanese.....but that is about to change massively thanks to the innovations of space x and a battery factory in the desert in nevada. Just wait until Luna can buy their 18650s locally....the transporting of lithium is the hard part. And america is finding a way to compete within our borders.

I agree shipping a battery legally is hard....and few ebike sellers are following the rules when it comes to shipping. I dont see how any china vendor can legally ship an ebike battery anywhere in the world by air legally. Maybe their are loopholes but I dont see them and i know this game well... the laws have gotten more rigorous and will keep getting harder. Sure its easier to break the rules when your in china....but you are on shakey ground and everyone knows it.

Luna decided to follow shipping rules early on and are hazmat certified and follow the rules and choose NOT to air ship batteries. Despite this most of our packs are are un 3483 certified and therefore qualified for air shipping which i dont think many vendors can claim.

And honestly...all cell has been around for 6 years and i have not heard talk of them on these forums until lately. I have some brand new all cell packs i cant sale with a straight face next to luna packs. Even at my cost.


all cell packs consist of chinese 18650 cells and have a 35 amp bms. I bought 20 of them and had nothing but problems and then all cell raised the price on me so i couldnt use them on my bike. Good luck with all cell warranty support.. i wasnt able to get it and that was aftter buying 20 and being the electricbike.com editor.

All cell is a big reason why i got into this business..... usa buyers needed better options....now they have one.

It's UN38.3 BTW.

If you don't mind us asking. Why go to the trouble and expense of doing UN38.3 on all those packs (plus every variant), then only offer ground shipping and not ship batteries internationally?

Can you try to answer that, without taking a shot at any other companies/countries

 

[LI-ghtcycle]

Luna does build many of their packs in the USA and have done so for years. No we cant keep up with demand and moved hard case production to asia using large commercial pack manufacturers and using our cells to ensure authenticity.


Our headquarters is located in the same city as Space-x by the way and have a working relationship with them more than i am allowed or willing to say. There is a reason why most of our cells are panasonic lately..... and i look forward to the day that our batteries can be made completely in the usa...from cell to pack and others (in high places) share my vision.

And speaking of space x, building a battery pack in house in not rocket science.... it is not hard....it is not that labor intensive if you have proper machinery. Of course its cheaper to build in china...but you have the big problem its hard to get authentic 18650 cells in china and its getting harder to transport them as packs, and of course there is quality control.. The logistics of transporting is the hard part and when you think of that you start to get into the real game.

Assembling an 18650 pack is something most es people can do and we all know its not that hard. Its the components that are hard....a good bms is hard... and nothing compared to Making a proper lithium 18650 CELL...and something china has not been able to do...and is something that has been left to the koreans and the japanese.....but that is about to change massively thanks to the innovations of space x and a battery factory in the desert in nevada. Just wait until Luna can buy their 18650s locally....the transporting of lithium is the hard part. And america is finding a way to compete within our borders.

I agree shipping a battery legally is hard....and few ebike sellers are following the rules when it comes to shipping. I dont see how any china vendor can legally ship an ebike battery anywhere in the world by air legally. Maybe their are loopholes but I dont see them and i know this game well... the laws have gotten more rigorous and will keep getting harder. Sure its easier to break the rules when your in china....but you are on shakey ground and everyone knows it.

Luna decided to follow shipping rules early on and are hazmat certified and follow the rules and choose NOT to air ship batteries. Despite this most of our packs are are un 3483 certified and therefore qualified for air shipping which i dont think many vendors can claim.

And honestly...all cell has been around for 6 years and i have not heard talk of them on these forums until lately. I have some brand new all cell packs i cant sale with a straight face next to luna packs. Even at my cost.


all cell packs consist of chinese 18650 cells and have a 35 amp bms. I bought 20 of them and had nothing but problems and then all cell raised the price on me so i couldnt use them on my bike. Good luck with all cell warranty support.. i wasnt able to get it and that was aftter buying 20 and being the electricbike.com editor.

All cell is a big reason why i got into this business..... usa buyers needed better options....now they have one.

Thanks for clearing that up for us Green Machine!

I appreciate what you and people like Elon Musk are doing to make batteries not only more affordable, but built here in the USA. I have much respect for what he is doing with his new Giga Factory for Tesla Motors, and I suspect that will raise quality and lower costs which means more good battery packs into the hands of more people.

The point ISN'T the cheapest, it's the best bang for the buck IMHO, I have used LiPo, LiFeP04 and now Li-Ion, and in the past, the main reason I avoided Li-Ion years ago was that most choices I had were for batteries that were either way past the expense of LiPo with all it's needy maintenance issues, and any that were close in price had questionable BMS and or support issues.

I have a customer that has used one of Luna's 48v Panasonic 11.5 ah Shark packs for 8 months now to power a DD hub motor build on a Magna bike (at the time she wanted a low cost E-Bike, so we built what she could afford) pulling her daughter in a trailer for grocery runs (around 6 mile round trips I would guess) with NO issues at all.

I have only a month or so on my new 72v Panasonic PF 11.6ah w/ 300w Luna Charger, and have no problems, even when I ran it a bit harder than I should (running a 444lb gross weight E-Bike + rider + 150 lb trailer) at around 30 MPH, the worst that I saw was after doing this a few days in a row possibly getting the cells out of balance, and just charging up to 100% Vs my usual 80% so that they got back in balance (the BMS was tripping occasionally and I would just bump it with the charger to fix, now it has run smoothly for over a week of daily use at the same load).

Now that I keep things closer to 15 - 20 mph when hauling the trailer, I have no problems, and no, nothing is perfect, but when I had an issue with a controller I bought (It had different plugs that I was expecting) Luna refunded my purchase so I could use what I spent as credit to buy something else.

There are always potential issues, and it's how a company deals with them that matter to me, and Luna has been a class act, and will continue to get my business.

 

[mailseth]

I've actually been really close to buying a 48v 20ah pack from Luna for my Sondors. I'm a bit concerned that I'll burn out the motor with my 25 amp controller, tho.

 

[amberwolf]

I agree shipping a battery legally is hard....and few ebike sellers are following the rules when it comes to shipping.

Just curious: could that be why this pack is marked with the wrong voltage, and thus Wh? I'd guess it is specifically so it will appear have a low enough wh limit to be shipped by air? (even though it is actually at least ten times what it is marked)

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=81108

Getting around the rules like this might appear to be how some places are shipping batteries (by air or otherwise) when perhaps they couldn't do it if they didn't? (I can't find them right now, but I've seen at least a couple other posts about batteries from various places that also had the wrong wh/voltage/ah/etc marked on them, presumably for shipping purposes. :/

 

[LI-ghtcycle]

I've actually been really close to buying a 48v 20ah pack from Luna for my Sondors. I'm a bit concerned that I'll burn out the motor with my 25 amp controller, tho.

There is no fear of using a large battery capacity for a an ebike motor, your controller however needs to be able to work with 48v, that said, many 36v controllers will be just fine with a 48v.

I don't know about the Sonders bike specifically, but if you do a search here on ES or on electricbike.com's forums, I am sure you will find good info on making that happen.

A bigger capacity battery also has the added benefit of not being as stressed with heavier use, i.e. going fast, climbing steep hills and/or hauling lots of cargo.

Generally speaking, if you could get by with say a 10ah battery, better to get a larger capacity of 15ah or better when practical, since the battery will last longer, and when it is nearer to the end of it's life, it will still have more usable range than a smaller battery that has been worked harder.

 

[mailseth]

I don't think the stock controller will take 48v, but I've already upgraded to an aftermarket 36v/48v controller that should be fine. And burning out the stock motor might simple accelerate my plans to get a MAC.

All what you say is true regarding batt size, and I recently realized that a large ebike battery can also power my off-grid cabin, so bigger the better as far as I'm concerned!

 

[tomjasz]

[

Getting around the rules like this might appear to be how some places are shipping batteries (by air or otherwise) when perhaps they couldn't do it if they didn't?

Of course they can, but the process gets slowed and there are numerous financial incentives. The craziness with customers and shippers makes it slow or more expensive.

[(I can't find them right now, but I've seen at least a couple other posts about batteries from various places that also had the wrong wh/voltage/ah/etc marked on them, presumably for shipping purposes. :/

i read them too. In my experience that's most common from China sources. I've not seen, or read of a USA maker labeling batteries this way. Chances are better these marking are Chinese. All of mine, not limited to my sig, are. And most are good to excellent quality. All with the inconsistencies that come with hand built batteries.

But there are differences. My $450 dolphin needs a relatively easy repair and was rather crude by some standards. My $575 battery has a better BMS. More consistent build, someone was better with their solder, and the packing/wrapping was well done.

Much the same with my soft packs. They were pretty evenly matched. But didn't have the price disparity. Again some build differences. Varied skill levels in the details, like the Dolphins. All were marked with significantly lower rating. With the exception of one. It was the nicer build too.

 

[USAEBIKECO]

SLA works fine if your commutes are short and you have a tight budget.

 

[wineboyrider]

Lithium lawn equipment packs are getting bigger and bigger. Greenworks has an 80v 4ah pack and a back pack version now and EGO now has a 7.5 ah pack . This will also help us reach that affordable and powerful battery goal. :?

 

[LockH]

SLA works fine if your commutes are short and you have a tight budget.

... and ya pedal like crazy upon each start from zero RPM, "up" hills (against gravity), etc to shave peak power outputs, and can also use regenerative braking if for any reason you need to stop or slow down (about the last thing you may wish to do on any trip from "A" to "B", unless you learn how to anticipate slows and stops and just can coast to any stop)... and you don't have any lousy aerodynamic shapes or travel "too fast" (think "slower" is "better")... and ya don't need to carry stuff like groceries (more weight/mass and shape - other than a drop of falling water - of anything adds more energy required to accelerate)... and if ya don't need to deplete charge more than about HALF of range "promoted" by a *seller*... or just don't use the bike/trike/etc AT ALL... but if ya do need to get around a lot don't mind buying fresh/new batts all the time... constantly (and recycling. Please?)... and can start recharging right away as soon as batt any less than "100% full"... then sealed lead-acid chemistry is GREAT! Go for it!

EDIT: PS? "Spent" SLA also makes for great door stops... but I ran out of doors.