ZombieSS's power stage for Lebowski's controller video pg17
- Thread starter zombiess
- Start date
HighHopes
10 kW
- Joined
- Mar 28, 2013
- Messages
- 929
in GateDrive_TD350.pdf the component R23 is not there for any reason.. i was deleting some other things so i could post that circuit for others interested in simulations.
Just incase you're interested, i went from that to an entire phase leg so i could experiment with deadtime & miller effect for this particular mosfet and if a negative bias will be necessary or not. R23 went on to become R226 in the attached.
i have since moved to 3-phase so i could experiment with some other things.
Just incase you're interested, i went from that to an entire phase leg so i could experiment with deadtime & miller effect for this particular mosfet and if a negative bias will be necessary or not. R23 went on to become R226 in the attached.
i have since moved to 3-phase so i could experiment with some other things.
Lebowski
10 MW
any new developments on this controller build ?
zombiess
10 MW
I had to do a redesign on the brain board pcb. I now have all the components laid where they belong so its just a matter of me double checking my work and doing PCB traces. If I am lucky I will be submitting it for production this week. Just trying to make sure I have as much covered as possible.
I need to figure out how to redo my pwm connectors as they need to be twisted pair so I am looking at connectors. Still need a ground plane on the brain board as well.
I need to figure out how to redo my pwm connectors as they need to be twisted pair so I am looking at connectors. Still need a ground plane on the brain board as well.
zombiess
10 MW
HighHopes said:
I am, but I still need to follow his schematic for all the supporting circuits. He just sells the programmed chip with a schematic and instructions. Rest is up to the end user. This is why it appears it's just him and Arlo1 playing around with it for the most part. I am hoping that after testing my PCB's are robust enough that I can offer some to others who would like to experiment, Arlo1 is after the same. He needs more people helping him test and providing feedback on different setups.
Yeh or just more money.... WIth money I could quit work and just build build build maybe even pay HighHopes Bigmoose Patric Liveforphysics and others to come help me play I meen work... lol. Im trying to win the loto... Not working out well though.zombiess said:
zombiess
10 MW
Arlo1 said:
I'm not the best with statistics (except I do know that there is a 100% fatality rate from those who inhale Nitrogen, so be careful around that stuff), but I think the odds are against you winning the lotto :lol:
Lebowski
10 MW
My take on the lottery is always:zombiess said:
Well, Arlin won the most important race in his life (when he was swimming with millions of his kin) so... who knows, he may get lucky twice
Yeah the loto is truly a tax on stupid people... But It would be cool and I usually just get a ticket or two with spare change and an excuse to go for a walk or bike ride.
IM working on a better job for the future but it will take time a side from that continuing to grow my business needs money and is hard as hell to build a retirement from.
IM working on a better job for the future but it will take time a side from that continuing to grow my business needs money and is hard as hell to build a retirement from.
zombiess
10 MW
Boards have finally been ordered. Hope I got most of it correct, found a few minor last minute changes after printing them out and checking parts layout.
Stielz
100 W
*Subscribed* Really interested to see what performance you gurus can get using Lebowski's controller with a high power, well designed power stage
zombiess
10 MW
Stielz said:
Arlo1 and I are hardly "Guru" status. We are noobs. Guys like Highhopes, Lebowski and Bigmoose are the Guru's.
HighHopes
10 kW
- Joined
- Mar 28, 2013
- Messages
- 929
ya i'm interested in how well those cheap DC link capacitors will work. i was looking for caps last night for my EV design and went to Wima website to select the one i want.. then, for the first time ever, i went to mouser.com to see how much they cost - holy sh#tballs batman! $89 for ONE !? what? i put 9 of them on a previous design, plus 3 snubber caps all from wima, and i thought this was "cheap" because i did not custom design the capacitor at Dearborn in florida. whoaa...
so i am liking electrolytic capacitors again cause they are $4 each. but how well will they work?
i am also VERY interested to know if he can get 5 parallel mosfets to run reliably and what the continuous rated current will be for his cooling choice (air or liquid?). because whatever he achieves will probably the the MAX that a discrete design can get. personally i think 4 parallel using matched mosfets with a conventional gate driver is enough, he will be pushing it to get 5 parallel. 6, IMO, forget it. i am interested in this because for my own EV i am wondering to use zombie's gate drive if it can get the power i want OR to upsize the switch and go to a SO-227 package. i'm trying to stay away from full out module because of cost.
so i am liking electrolytic capacitors again cause they are $4 each. but how well will they work?
i am also VERY interested to know if he can get 5 parallel mosfets to run reliably and what the continuous rated current will be for his cooling choice (air or liquid?). because whatever he achieves will probably the the MAX that a discrete design can get. personally i think 4 parallel using matched mosfets with a conventional gate driver is enough, he will be pushing it to get 5 parallel. 6, IMO, forget it. i am interested in this because for my own EV i am wondering to use zombie's gate drive if it can get the power i want OR to upsize the switch and go to a SO-227 package. i'm trying to stay away from full out module because of cost.
zombiess
10 MW
HighHopes said:
I went with TO-220's to test because I anticipate failure at some point during testing. After that the plan is to go to IRFP4568 TO-247 FETs.
BTW, welcome to the world most of us have to live in :lol:
HighHopes
10 kW
- Joined
- Mar 28, 2013
- Messages
- 929
ya.. its killing me picking out a DC link capacitor. i'm like "crap.. crap.. total crap.. ok, here's one that might work.. nope disipation too high a 40khz .. crap.. oh here's one. ok, $8 not bad.. oh.. has 2000hr rated life? what? that's pathetic, this thing needs to work without complaint for 20 years!"
this is harder than it looks :|
this is harder than it looks :|
zombiess
10 MW
HighHopes said:
This is one of the reasons I openly admire these cheap china controllers I have modded to the max and abuse. When I build my own China controllers I choose electrolytic caps that are small enough to suite my packaging restraints and have 105C ratings and try to get a minimum of 8000hr rated caps with a decent ESR/price point. My current cheap favorite is the United Chemicon EKXJ161ELL471MMN3S because it meets my packaging requirements, 12k hour rated at 105c and has around a 250mOhm ESR if I remember correctly. I purchased +200 of them for $1.40 each I think. By your standards they suck, but I know they are functional and that's what I am settling for considering the design. My current batch of 24 FET controllers came with TY series LTec caps installed that are only 2000hr rated at 105C and I have no idea of the ESR on them, but with 8 in parallel distributed evenly across the board + adding 4 to 6 85C 1uF pulse rated Kemet F426DF105J250C across the power rails everything appears to be holding up well, but time will tell the story. I believe most of these controllers will outlive the bikes they power, but when I see myself and users pushing these to 10kW and even 15kW bursts, they are a pretty good deal for the $405 I sell them for. At least I think they are a good deal and I am a known cheap bastard so I try to price things at a point I know I would purchase them at.
I know from testing with thermal probes the internal temperature of a sealed 18 FET controller almost never goes above 70C and this was in the Las Vegas summer heat when it was 45C and the FETs were running at 80-90C. It's fun to come out to your bike and touch the hub motor or controller and they are already too hot to touch because it's been sitting in the sun, but they haven't even been run!
Sometimes you just need to make do with what you have, but I know what your design goals are for and they are difficult to achieve on a budget. Even as a one off or small run I am guessing it will still require some value engineering... aka compromise. Unless your loaded, then shoot for the moon :lol:
HighHopes
10 kW
- Joined
- Mar 28, 2013
- Messages
- 929
thx for the PN, those caps are so far better than the one i picked. by the way, ESR for a DC link cap is only to affect heating and to lesser degree helps you avoid resonance. i have never found caps to get hot so i think maybe even the crappiest cap must have good enough ESR. it is more important to get ultra low ESL but it is hard to decipher this parameter on the datasheet. what i know for sure though is that radial lead caps are terrible for high ESL so you MUST cut those leads to absolute short as possible. but for costs.. i think maybe you can not beat it, can + radial leads = affordable. so might be a case of try and see.
i did find a good cap that was radial lead years ago.. but i forget now the manufacturer. all i remember is that their capacitors were yellow.
Njay - i have a different opinion (we can agree to disagree). engineering a product is about making functional AND reliable. functional means i have met the design specification (which may or may not include cost target) and reliable means i have designed in solutions for all 1st order failures and have calculated the mean time before failure which exceeds my target. what i see in DIY forumns is no thought given at all to reliable design and usually is not particularly functional. but .. but... there are a lot of motivated people willing to share ideas and test things out and each person brings something different to the table. if we can keep the info flowing perhaps we'll get to something that actually "works".
i did find a good cap that was radial lead years ago.. but i forget now the manufacturer. all i remember is that their capacitors were yellow.
Njay - i have a different opinion (we can agree to disagree). engineering a product is about making functional AND reliable. functional means i have met the design specification (which may or may not include cost target) and reliable means i have designed in solutions for all 1st order failures and have calculated the mean time before failure which exceeds my target. what i see in DIY forumns is no thought given at all to reliable design and usually is not particularly functional. but .. but... there are a lot of motivated people willing to share ideas and test things out and each person brings something different to the table. if we can keep the info flowing perhaps we'll get to something that actually "works".
bigmoose
1 MW
High hopes glad to see you here!
Split the bulk rail caps from the low ESR function, and distribute the very low ESR's drain to source on each bridge leg, might be the low cost compromise.
Split the bulk rail caps from the low ESR function, and distribute the very low ESR's drain to source on each bridge leg, might be the low cost compromise.
HighHopes, the area where you work at is a special niche where the cost part was removed from the equation, so you can get all 3 
. That's not the normal case. And "reliable" can also meet a requirement even if it is for only 6 months - more or less the typical product ("consumer market") life cycle in our society.
Regarning e-bikes, I once met a guy who's been in China studying the way they use them there (he was opening a e-bike controller design services company with focus on good products reliability included - which actually didn't succeed, I think they didn't even get a single customer although he's an experienced EE and traveled to many faires and the like around the World). He said there's an e-bikes shop "almost everywhere" and controllers are very cheap, so people don't get very upset if riding a bike and the controller blows - they just walk a neighborhood to the nearest store and they fix it quickly by replacing it.
. That's not the normal case. And "reliable" can also meet a requirement even if it is for only 6 months - more or less the typical product ("consumer market") life cycle in our society.Regarning e-bikes, I once met a guy who's been in China studying the way they use them there (he was opening a e-bike controller design services company with focus on good products reliability included - which actually didn't succeed, I think they didn't even get a single customer although he's an experienced EE and traveled to many faires and the like around the World). He said there's an e-bikes shop "almost everywhere" and controllers are very cheap, so people don't get very upset if riding a bike and the controller blows - they just walk a neighborhood to the nearest store and they fix it quickly by replacing it.
zombiess
10 MW
I have started the construction of the 3 driver / power boards. I thought working with the SMD parts was going to be worse than it is. I picked larger parts since I'm hand assembling and so far it's going well. The SOT packge of the TD350E is a bit challenging but everything else has been easy and quick.
