Bought the ride! Can it be electrified?

[knoxie]

Hi

Without doubt the RC approach will be more costly Ypedals experience with his setups ( he is a god person to ask as he has both RC and hub motors) is that in terms of efficiency they run pretty much on a par, to get these RC motors to run at an efficient speed you need high rpms and when you take in to account the losses in the gearing and the belts there is nothing in it, hub motors like the X5 are not very efficient a low RPMs you have to ride with a conservative throttle however most of time you will be running at higher speeds where the motors can run at typically 80% efficiency.

Justin from e-bikes explains this in some detail and it is also my experience from using hub and geared systems, which ever way you look at it you still need x amount of power to run at x speed if you like, I know its not as simple as that but anywhere on any geared system you are going to encounter losses.

The BMC motor is not suitable for off road use I have many of these motors, they are great though for town riding and hill climbing keeping the power below 1200W on these motors really helps with their long term reliability.

And on to reliability, at the moment the RC setups dont appear to be that robust esp when you are comparing them with a direct drive hub motor, a lot of the builds have problems and need bracing, welding and extra bits bolting on, that said they do offer an amazing level of instant power in a tiny unit and I like them very much, I just like relative simplicity of a hubbie, it provides more than enough speed and power for me without any noise or snapping belts and noisy chains.

This bike is almost too good to mess with, the choice is yours of course the RC guys of course favour their setups without often ever trying a fully hopped up X5 I have ridden both and I like them both so wont discount 1 against the other in the same way.

Knoxie

 

[doc007]

ok, thanks that is some good information. Maybe Ypedal will chime in regarding R/C...
I will try to pick up my bike this weekend to take a closer look at the dropouts to see if I can fabricate a new one in steel for it. I think as for now a hub build will suffice. I don't plan to do any crazy off-roading. As of now I'm thinking an X5 or 9C.

 

[John in CR]

Putting a hub motor on that highly (probably overly so) engineered wheel connection is easy. All you need is a $20-30 angle grinder, drill, ear protection, and 2 plate steel scraps of similar thickness as what currently holds that wheel on. Just copy it in steel except instead of clamping onto the round axle, make it clamp solidly onto the flats of the the hub motor. It looks like the bike even allows you to align the wheel perfectly after the fact. Yeah, a bike like that deserves an over-volted X5. If you don't feel up to it, send it to me in Costa Rica (I'll pay shipping), and I'll have it all prepared and ready to go for you to ride as much as you want on your vacation here. 8)

For the battery, too bad you don't have the big triangle of a Kona Stinky, but don't fret, batteries in a sidesaddle-like setup over the top tube near the headset is surprisingly out of the way, and the best place for manhandling the bike while off of it for a high battery mounting position, and without that annoying waggle effect while riding of battery weight up high behind the seat.

John

 

[docnjoj]

Hey doc007
Just a suggestion about X5 and 9c's The 9C is about half the weight (unsprung) compared to the X5 and i suspect with that fancy suspension you would notice the difference. I just changed over from a Bafang to the 9C and hardly notice the suspension but if I doubled the motor weight again I'll bet the springs would have to be tightened down thus defeating the purpose of the subtleness of long suspension travel. That is a gorgeous bike and definitely listen to John about rear dropouts.
otherDoc

 

[Seriousknot]

On the question of RC vs Hub. I chose to go with a Hub, X5305 on a 24" rim. The main reason is simplicty of setup. For you the hardest part will be making some simple dropouts (I like the way your swingarm is made) then mounting the batteries and your basically done. If you are a relative Noob like myself, the logical thing is to adhere to the KISS system until you get some more fabrication experience. I am building a Karpiel Disco. I think having the battery weight forward will even out the weight distribution. Here's a link to a really nice Specialized Big Hit for sale close to me. http://fayar.craigslist.org/bik/1852885759.html

 

[doc007]

let's keep the discussion civil ...no fighting :lol:

Your requests were reasonable until this one :lol:

I'll let the RC crowd chime in from their side but really it if you're not confident it would be alot cheaper and easier to use a hub.
It'd just be a matter of having some steel plates with drop out slots cut in them made up and bolted to your frame. Or as mentioned above you could have torque plates that bolt to the motor first then bolt up to your frame. A slight hassle to change your rear wheel but then it is anyway with torque arms.
I'd remove the bolt on drop out bits, take them off to a metal fabber with a drawing of what dropouts you'd like them to make and then have them make the copy in plate steel, with all the holes and slots pre cut so you can just bolt it on and slide a wheel in like normal. Then if you want to revert the bike it's just a matter of slotting the old drop outs and wheel back on.

If you want stealth RC is probably not the way to go. If the geared puma and BMC motors were more reliable I'd recommend one of those but for offroad use neither has a good track record.

The cost for a reasonable direct drive hub set up will be about $1000-$1500 depending on what you want, where you go and how much you can do yourself.
I'll let the RC guys estimate their costs

yeah, i was afraid I might start a frock and flock war. i think im getting an idea of what type of fabrication will be required to build a strong torque arm. Of course, I will check with you guys first before I do anything.

 

[doc007]

Hi

Without doubt the RC approach will be more costly Ypedals experience with his setups ( he is a god person to ask as he has both RC and hub motors) is that in terms of efficiency they run pretty much on a par, to get these RC motors to run at an efficient speed you need high rpms and when you take in to account the losses in the gearing and the belts there is nothing in it, hub motors like the X5 are not very efficient a low RPMs you have to ride with a conservative throttle however most of time you will be running at higher speeds where the motors can run at typically 80% efficiency.

Justin from e-bikes explains this in some detail and it is also my experience from using hub and geared systems, which ever way you look at it you still need x amount of power to run at x speed if you like, I know its not as simple as that but anywhere on any geared system you are going to encounter losses.

The BMC motor is not suitable for off road use I have many of these motors, they are great though for town riding and hill climbing keeping the power below 1200W on these motors really helps with their long term reliability.

And on to reliability, at the moment the RC setups dont appear to be that robust esp when you are comparing them with a direct drive hub motor, a lot of the builds have problems and need bracing, welding and extra bits bolting on, that said they do offer an amazing level of instant power in a tiny unit and I like them very much, I just like relative simplicity of a hubbie, it provides more than enough speed and power for me without any noise or snapping belts and noisy chains.

This bike is almost too good to mess with, the choice is yours of course the RC guys of course favour their setups without often ever trying a fully hopped up X5 I have ridden both and I like them both so wont discount 1 against the other in the same way.

Knoxie

Thanks for the non bias opinion. After seeing those vids of R/C's blasting around, it really make me want to put one on. Almost to the point where I don't care if I will attract unwanted attention. However, cost is an issue. I really wish I had a CNC to play with.

How is pedaling on a crystalyte X5 without any power? I'm wondering how bad is that resistance produced by the magnets?

 

[doc007]

Putting a hub motor on that highly (probably overly so) engineered wheel connection is easy. All you need is a $20-30 angle grinder, drill, ear protection, and 2 plate steel scraps of similar thickness as what currently holds that wheel on. Just copy it in steel except instead of clamping onto the round axle, make it clamp solidly onto the flats of the the hub motor. It looks like the bike even allows you to align the wheel perfectly after the fact. Yeah, a bike like that deserves an over-volted X5. If you don't feel up to it, send it to me in Costa Rica (I'll pay shipping), and I'll have it all prepared and ready to go for you to ride as much as you want on your vacation here. 8)

For the battery, too bad you don't have the big triangle of a Kona Stinky, but don't fret, batteries in a sidesaddle-like setup over the top tube near the headset is surprisingly out of the way, and the best place for manhandling the bike while off of it for a high battery mounting position, and without that annoying waggle effect while riding of battery weight up high behind the seat.

John

Thanks for the tips. I started watching some instructional vids on youtube for working with 1/4" steel with an angle grinder and a hand drill. Makes me feel like this is doable. Even though a CNC and a drill press would make this job 1000x easier and better.

Thanks for wanting to adopt my bike. Funny you mention vacation in CR. I've been thinking of doing one for a long time. What the best season to visit? ...if all else fails I will use this bike for downhilling. Which brings me to the next point... how hard would it be to convert a hub or and RC build back to normal state if I decide to do some downhilling one weekend?

Saddles may be the way to go.. i need to maximize space.. rear rack is out of the question for me

 

[doc007]

Hey doc007
Just a suggestion about X5 and 9c's The 9C is about half the weight (unsprung) compared to the X5 and i suspect with that fancy suspension you would notice the difference. I just changed over from a Bafang to the 9C and hardly notice the suspension but if I doubled the motor weight again I'll bet the springs would have to be tightened down thus defeating the purpose of the subtleness of long suspension travel. That is a gorgeous bike and definitely listen to John about rear dropouts.
otherDoc

For sure, i will need all the advice I can get. John has some serious machines over there in CR.

As for suspension, I'm not too worried right now. Hopefully, the fancy suspension can be set-up to accommodate the extra weight in the wheel. Do you think the extra wheel weight would make the bike bounce more?

 

[doc007]

On the question of RC vs Hub. I chose to go with a Hub, X5305 on a 24" rim. The main reason is simplicty of setup. For you the hardest part will be making some simple dropouts (I like the way your swingarm is made) then mounting the batteries and your basically done. If you are a relative Noob like myself, the logical thing is to adhere to the KISS system until you get some more fabrication experience. I am building a Karpiel Disco. I think having the battery weight forward will even out the weight distribution. Here's a link to a really nice Specialized Big Hit for sale close to me. http://fayar.craigslist.org/bik/1852885759.html

that Karpiel Disco is a nice frame...have you started a build log yet? Also, have you tried pedaling the X5 without power? How does it feel?
Are you buying that specialized TOO?!

 

[knoxie]

Hi

Yes the X5 is a heavy motor but it is maybe a little more robust than the 9 cont motor? however the 9 cont motor is cheaper and a lot lighter, id go with one of those.

Peddling the X5304 does drag a bit more than most but its not a big thing and to be honest why pedal? I don't pedal much on my X5 to the extent that there isn't any need for a chain other than in an emergency, I have normal bikes if I want to go peddling which I do to keep fit most weekends.

You can slip a pack of lipo batts in anywhere on that frame and if you run an infineon you can fit that where you want they aren't too big from memory.

Get a good throttle as well, I would heartily recommend the Magura throttle, wouldn't trust anything else, bomb proof and never had a full throttle out of control moment unlike some of the cheaper hall effect ones, add a kill switch to the bars and switch the brake line on the controller if you do use a cheapo hall effect throttle.

You should be able to get a nice setup thee in no time, you can make it so most of the gear is quickly removable including the wheel for you to quickly convert it if you want to shake your bones a bit down a mountain.

All the best with your build, it's going to look nice I am sure

Knoxie

 

[Seriousknot]

On the question of RC vs Hub. I chose to go with a Hub, X5305 on a 24" rim. The main reason is simplicty of setup. For you the hardest part will be making some simple dropouts (I like the way your swingarm is made) then mounting the batteries and your basically done. If you are a relative Noob like myself, the logical thing is to adhere to the KISS system until you get some more fabrication experience. I am building a Karpiel Disco. I think having the battery weight forward will even out the weight distribution. Here's a link to a really nice Specialized Big Hit for sale close to me. http://fayar.craigslist.org/bik/1852885759.html

that Karpiel Disco is a nice frame...have you started a build log yet? Also, have you tried pedaling the X5 without power? How does it feel?
Are you buying that specialized TOO?!

Yeah, I have a build log "Fresh Full Suspension Build" just search my posts, I don't have that many yet. As for pedaling the X5, they really aren't that bad. I love the stealth primarily though, I can sneak up on cats sitting in their yard, I am on them before they can react!! I can go anywhere a normal bicycle can go. City park, no problem. Corps of Engineers campground, same. If you try that with an RC setup, I bet you will be stopped, at least around here where I live. Nothing against RC though, I want the white bike in the video almost as bad as that Blonde that lives around the corner, (she's probably high maintenance though). Maybe needs a little more developement....I don't like tinkering around on things all the time, like chains for instance. Also, everybody wants more power, but I it to be controllable or it's no good to me. I like the Specialized bike but if anyone else wants it, go for it.

 

[knoxie]

Good post

I agree however as I have stable of different bikes I would like an RC bike to use when the occasion was right, if it is to be your only ride then the noise factor and at the moment the controllability and reliability factors come in to play.

I ride a normal hub bike to work everyday, nobody knows its electrified in fact they keep commenting on how fit I must be getting, its a stealth thing you see and when I park the bike, the batteries come with me so parked up it looks like a normal bike.

Not so sure an RC bike would go un noticed in the same way? however I wouldnt bolt an RC setup on to some piece of cr*p walmart bike anyway it would go on a bike that I wouldnt lock and park anyhow purely because of how valuable it is without the motor.

I think their time is coming, Matt is making some amazing stuff out there and to be fair the bits that are breaking and the issues this far are nothing to do with his part its just the quality and the reliability of this RC stuff being pushed to the MAX lets be fair on these things they were never designed to do what folks are doing with them.

I am in the process of building another bike, its a full susser on a nice frame, looking for some triple clamps at the moment and will be running a 9 conts hub motor 72V 40A with an old school x lyte controller with adjustable current limiting on the handle bars 8) will be building a small 5AH pack to go inside the frame to just use it for small blasts off road locally on small trails, should be a hoot

 

[doc007]

Hi

Peddling the X5304 does drag a bit more than most but its not a big thing and to be honest why pedal? I don't pedal much on my X5 to the extent that there isn't any need for a chain other than in an emergency, I have normal bikes if I want to go peddling which I do to keep fit most weekends.

You can slip a pack of lipo batts in anywhere on that frame and if you run an infineon you can fit that where you want they aren't too big from memory.

Get a good throttle as well, I would heartily recommend the Magura throttle, wouldn't trust anything else, bomb proof and never had a full throttle out of control moment unlike some of the cheaper hall effect ones, add a kill switch to the bars and switch the brake line on the controller if you do use a cheapo hall effect throttle.

All the best with your build, it's going to look nice I am sure

Knoxie

Yup, thats what I'm worried about. Peddling a 42 lb beast (that's without motor and batts) when things go wrong. I'm still in the newb phase so everything is new to me. So its likely that something will break along the way.

I will have to consider the magura throttle. The last thing I want is the bike to get stuck at WOT. Is converting the magura for hub motor use difficult? Ive read that the internal gearing in the throttle would need to be changed.. others have put in a resistor...

thanks for the wishes, i will need them

 

[doc007]

Yeah, I have a build log "Fresh Full Suspension Build" just search my posts, I don't have that many yet. As for pedaling the X5, they really aren't that bad. I love the stealth primarily though, I can sneak up on cats sitting in their yard, I am on them before they can react!! I can go anywhere a normal bicycle can go. City park, no problem. Corps of Engineers campground, same. If you try that with an RC setup, I bet you will be stopped, at least around here where I live. Nothing against RC though, I want the white bike in the video almost as bad as that Blonde that lives around the corner, (she's probably high maintenance though). Maybe needs a little more developement....I don't like tinkering around on things all the time, like chains for instance. Also, everybody wants more power, but I it to be controllable or it's no good to me. I like the Specialized bike but if anyone else wants it, go for it.

nice build you have coming along. have you decided on which batts your going to to get? what is your goal for top speed?

 

[doc007]

I am in the process of building another bike, its a full susser on a nice frame, looking for some triple clamps at the moment and will be running a 9 conts hub motor 72V 40A with an old school x lyte controller with adjustable current limiting on the handle bars 8) will be building a small 5AH pack to go inside the frame to just use it for small blasts off road locally on small trails, should be a hoot

at this point im thinking I will also go for the 9c and volt it up to 72. what kind of bike do you have? for a triple clamp I would check pinkbike for used stuff. maybe CL but I tend to find that the prices listed there are higher.

have you seen the new 9C motors? (http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=19138) they are thinner, thus allowing some disk brake calipers to fit.