Advice - Affordable Hill climber Electric bike Kit

[swbluto]

Since weight was overestimated by, assumably, 1/3, that means your capacity needs may only be 564*(2/3) + 15*20 = 675 / .8 -> 844 * 1.5 safety factor -> 1266 watthour (A 60V 20Ah pack does it just fine. This assumes you travel at an average of 15 mph and little pedaling; if you go faster (on the flat parts), then you'll consume more. Also, if you contribute more pedaling, you can further decrease your capacity needs.)

If you're open to the complexities and risks of LiPo, they are cheap and fairly lightweight for your use. And it sounds like this bike is a 'recreational bike' which sounds like 3 days of use per week or lower, which means the LiPo could last several years with proper care before replacement is needed. For 1266 watthour, and assuming 55 cents per watthour, that's ~$700 in batteries. The 20inch 9C wheel with controller would cost somewhere around $300, I think. Add in another $200-300 for this and that, like LVC alarms, balancer and charger, andersons, etc., and it sounds like you have a good combination for ~$1300 total. Of course, looking at ping battery, it looks like a 60V 20ah battery costs $1000 which sounds just about the same cost as the Lipo and all the extra electronics you have to buy and without the risks and complexities.

 

[lauradawn]

I have to ask just a basic question in all of this.
I like the idea of going inexpensively to be sure.
At the same time, I'm quite new to the electric bicycle motor.
What i have gleaned so far, well are a few things
Looking at the different motors, I want one that does not add drag when i'm pedaling.
Also, well hub wheel motors are the norm now : )
I want something with regeneration built in
and quiet
I know they are more expensive, much - The EMotion E+ makes a 1000watt bike that i've ridden.
It rides like a dream, is quiet and smooth, has regen, overheat protection, wheel and lipo setu-up so i could have two batteries
It will easily take the hills (I know from experience) and will only quit if it overheats (of which to this point, they've had no isssues)
they even have financing so that i could afford it now - no interest : )
Any opinions - anything i could do for less that would have all these aspects.
This has warranty, and they will install for free too.
Opinions greatly appreciated - I'm almost ready to just go this route

 

[swbluto]

I have to ask just a basic question in all of this.
I like the idea of going inexpensively to be sure.
At the same time, I'm quite new to the electric bicycle motor.
What i have gleaned so far, well are a few things
Looking at the different motors, I want one that does not add drag when i'm pedaling.
Also, well hub wheel motors are the norm now : )
I want something with regeneration built in
and quiet
I know they are more expensive, much - The EMotion E+ makes a 1000watt bike that i've ridden.
It rides like a dream, is quiet and smooth, has regen, overheat protection, wheel and lipo setu-up so i could have two batteries
It will easily take the hills (I know from experience) and will only quit if it overheats (of which to this point, they've had no isssues)
they even have financing so that i could afford it now - no interest : )
Any opinions - anything i could do for less that would have all these aspects.
This has warranty, and they will install for free too.
Opinions greatly appreciated - I'm almost ready to just go this route

As far as I know, the "no drag" thing is available to geared hub motors but they don't provide regen (Because the motor isn't being turned while unpowered due to the freewheel). Direct drive motors can provide regen, but they don't freewheel. With the 'conventional options', you can't have both. However, the 9C's have such a low drag that many report that it's like it's not even there. This is further confirmed by the fairly low no-load current reported by ebikes.ca (less no-load current, less drag). So, with a 9C, it'd be like pedaling normally and having regen available, so I've heard. I don't really know from experience as I'm still in the process of converting mine to 9C, but it's sounding good so far (I'm setting mine up to conquer hills at 30 mph, so I don't think you should have problems with going up them at 15 mph with less weight with overheating and the such).

I don't have an opinion of the Emotion. As long as the hub/controller is fine with it as you've already tested, and as long as you have enough battery, you should be fine. Let us know what kind of battery it is (Mainly, voltage and AH) and we can check whether it'll suffice for 5000 ft. climbs. From my knowledge, the "ready made packages" usually charge a pretty significant markup on the battery and that could mean an extra thousand or more on the battery alone.

 

[lauradawn]

So, with a 9C, it'd be like pedaling normally and having regen available, so I've heard. I don't really know from experience as I'm still in the process of converting mine to 9C, but it's sounding good so far (I'm setting mine up to conquer hills at 30 mph, so I don't think you should have problems with going up them at 15 mph with less weight with overheating and the such).

I don't have an opinion of the Emotion. As long as the hub/controller is fine with it as you've already tested, and as long as you have enough battery, you should be fine. Let us know what kind of battery it is (Mainly, voltage and AH) and we can check whether it'll suffice for 5000 ft. climbs. From my knowledge, the "ready made packages" usually charge a pretty significant markup on the battery and that could mean an extra thousand or more on the battery alone.

I looked at the site
What a difference in Price!
I have a bit of time - Please keep me posted as to how yours does when finished
The batteries are quite expensive. I would get both the wheel battery (about 650) and the lipo (I think about 900 or so!) This would give a range of at least 60 miles on the flat - 30 miles if all uphill. I like that they are both unobtrusive fr the most part.

 

[lauradawn]

Evoforce - Really nice!
Inspiring : )

 

[swbluto]

So, with a 9C, it'd be like pedaling normally and having regen available, so I've heard. I don't really know from experience as I'm still in the process of converting mine to 9C, but it's sounding good so far (I'm setting mine up to conquer hills at 30 mph, so I don't think you should have problems with going up them at 15 mph with less weight with overheating and the such).

I don't have an opinion of the Emotion. As long as the hub/controller is fine with it as you've already tested, and as long as you have enough battery, you should be fine. Let us know what kind of battery it is (Mainly, voltage and AH) and we can check whether it'll suffice for 5000 ft. climbs. From my knowledge, the "ready made packages" usually charge a pretty significant markup on the battery and that could mean an extra thousand or more on the battery alone.

I looked at the site
What a difference in Price!
I have a bit of time - Please keep me posted as to how yours does when finished
The batteries are quite expensive. I would get both the wheel battery (about 650) and the lipo (I think about 900 or so!) This would give a range of at least 60 miles on the flat - 30 miles if all uphill. I like that they are both unobtrusive fr the most part.

Do you have a link to the products you're referring to?

EDIT: It seems almost everything on that site is specified at 36V 10Ah. That's 360 watt-hours. Right off hand, I would say that wouldn't be enough unless you took it kind of slow and pedaled hard up the hills (Unless it's significantly less than 5000 feet or so, or the distance is less than 10 miles or so if the climb is big.)

http://epluselectricbike.com/buy-bikes-online/electric-bike-accessories/extra-nimh-hub-battery-pack

 

[veloman]

Laura, you're going to want a battery that is at least 36v and around 30ah. That will be about 1000 watt hours which might be enough for your 4000 ft Mt Shasta climb if you pedal a good bit too.

I suggest you ask the E+ guys about their system handling a 5000 ft climb at 10% or steeper. I feel like they are assuming steep 12% climbs that are nowhere near as long as the one you are mentioning, which will be a problem. Is there anyway you can test ride one of their bike up that climb? That would tell you for sure.

 

[jag]

!!Thank You!!!
The idea of actually trying some of these configurations is excellent. Any Californian's or Oregonians on this Thread?

Ilya at ebikessf is in San Fransisco. He has been helpful to others in the area. He may not be reading this thread, but you can pmail him or call using the contact info linked from my previous post.

There are probably lots of other people in CA and must be some in OR. Maybe a targeted post when you are in a particular city/town like "Ebikers in XX interested in meeting Sat Y/Z date"

When I travelled with a VW bus it used to be easy to meet people this way. Should work for ebikers also I hope.

 

[kentlim26]

hi laura

Do consider the wheel size diameter to 20" instead of 26". it will gives you more troque and lower speed. for real best bang buck is the Conhismtor 1000watts with disc brake included + ems shipping to SG i pay them only SGD350/ USD250 or GBP160. i think it is a very affordable price. the max output watts i saw my meter is 1533 wattspeak.1.5c.. my test on this motor, with a little press on my thumb, it also works on slop climbing.

im sure it can give you more troque for sure for 20". wheel. going for a 26" the configuration for troque needs a very high end hub.. to go for a real lower cost, 20" wheel, sure give you a lift up. i haven't try out the smaller diameter wheel size for 20". it is good to check it out those who own a 20" wheel and try it out on 5000feets.. moutain. im sure they have a details infomation, on its performace. 20" for 1000watts speed will be reduce alot, however troque will certainly increased. if you have try out your 20" on the moutains, please post some thread here, on the 20" wheels perform on those moutains.

cheeers.

kentlim

 

[jag]

To add some quantitative information:

Some reccomend a 20" wheel instead of a 26.

That indeed makes a difference, but not a huge one. In fact, the torque goes up by a factor 26/20 = 1.3 and the speed goes down by the same factor, so it is equivalent to a 1.3:1 down gearing.

By contrast a BMC/eZee/PUMA/MAC hub has a 5:1 internal down gearing. This translates into significantly better electrical efficiency when hill climbing. For example climbing a 5% hill at 15km/h with a 100kg bike+rider the geared BMC uses about 28 Wh/km, while the 9C uses a bit over 40 Wh/km, a 40% increase in power usage! This means a 9C will need a 40% larger capacity battery to go up the same hill, and will generate much more internal waste heat. These numbers are taken from the graphs linked in my previous post. Specific numbers for different grade hills, weights and speeds will vary, but the general principle that the geared hub is more efficient uphill will remain.

 

[swbluto]

To add some quantitative information:

Some reccomend a 20" wheel instead of a 26.

That indeed makes a difference, but not a huge one. In fact, the torque goes up by a factor 26/20 = 1.3 and the speed goes down by the same factor, so it is equivalent to a 1.3:1 down gearing.

By contrast a BMC/eZee/PUMA/MAC hub has a 5:1 internal down gearing. This translates into significantly better electrical efficiency when hill climbing. For example climbing a 5% hill at 15km/h with a 100kg bike+rider the geared BMC uses about 28 Wh/km, while the 9C uses a bit over 40 Wh/km, a 40% increase in power usage! This means a 9C will need a 40% larger capacity battery to go up the same hill, and will generate much more internal waste heat. These numbers are taken from the graphs linked in my previous post. Specific numbers for different grade hills, weights and speeds will vary, but the general principle that the geared hub is more efficient uphill will remain.

Yes, in general, a geared hub is ideal for hills but the OP desires silence. I suppose nylon gears address this, but I believe the problem is still there. Geared hubs are also more expensive. My calculations suggest a difference of efficiency of around 3-6%(taking into account gear losses because that's also heat released within the hub), but the difference in wh/distance is nowhere near 33% like you suggest. My calcs show a difference of 5-10%. Also, geared hubs typically don't provide regen.

The difference between 26" and 20" comes from, yes, more thrust at a given amount of motor torque/current but also increased efficiency and less heat. That significantly reduces the risk of overheating. I've read that the continuous motor current rating of the 2807 9C is 75 amps. A phase current of 55 phase amps is enough to get a 250 pound bike+person up a 7% hill on a 20 inch at close to 30 mph, so I'm thinking it could take 200 pounds up a hill with ease without any risk of overheating.

 

[evblazer]

How silent is silent? Maybe I just have a noisy bike with oh 13ft of chain on it but I can't hear the cute85 that I have mounted on the front with the constant symphony of noises that comes with riding. When I have the bike up on the lift running it I hear a little whirring noise when it starts moving but shifting the rear gear cluster makes 10x more noise at least. Of course the only thing I have to compare it to is my electric mowers, an old dc brushed 9" series motor and the loudest of all my outrunner friction drive at full throttle.

 

[docnjoj]

Well since we are talking about noise I gotta add my 2cnts. The new 9C's that my wife and I have are much quieter than a Bafang. They have similar torque at both 36 and 54 volts and use about the same w/h. This is with 20" wheels and averaging about 15 mph. I really want to hear a quiet geared motor as I would buy it in a heartbeat, mainly for the lightness. Bafang is about 1/2 the weight of the 9C and that makes a difference (somewhat) on my suspension.
otherDoc

 

[ryan]

Did someone mention Mt. Shasta? Are you expecting to climb Shasta with this bike? Awesome!

 

[veloman]

Yes, she plans to climb Mt Shasta, she posted a link a mapmyride route with a 4000 ft climb.

 

[snowranger]

It appears she is riding to one of the trailheads, Old Ski Bowl. The summit is 6,000 + feet higher. I have never seen anyone summiting with a bicycle.

 

[lauradawn]

Did someone mention Mt. Shasta? Are you expecting to climb Shasta with this bike?

It appears she is riding to one of the trailheads, Old Ski Bowl. The summit is 6,000 + feet higher. I have never seen anyone summiting with a bicycle.

No. I wish i could get a bike up to the top. The grades to get to the top are - 80% and some sheer. I hope to get to the top soon, so far about 10,500 or 11,000 up.
I did talk with the people at Electric Motion e+ bikes and it will make it up to the top. It may slow on the 14% grades, but is made to go up 18%. The hub battery would only make it about 15 miles at those grades - but adding a Lip battery would make it work. The motors are heavy.
I have to admit - they will install for me, and looking at the bike, they felt another 225 in upgrades would be helpful that they could do - Montague parts (they use montague as one of their bikes)
I'd get a warranty - financing, and I know this would be done right - problem free.
so i'm seriously considering it if I can get enough money!
I'm concerned, being a newbie to this realy, that i don't know enough at this point to put it together myself.
Also, so many issues concern me. I have ridden many different ones, and this one seemed to be the smoothest, easiest, most powerful, no drag. I have concerns about the weight.
I'll have to do what was suggested above and get into some local posts and see if anyone has the 9 continent (6 x 10) - I'd like to try the crystalyte - but then i see the posts and the BMC v2 (have not looked that one up yet)
When i do, i find other even more powerful kits that i know will safely get up the hills - but then the cost comes in again.
As well, the building seems to be a process, and while i would enjoy that, I feel for my first one, I just want to know it will work, and it is better at this point to leave it to someone who knows what they are doing! : )
Easy for my first bike is good. The rear disk brakes, I realize is an issue too - thus the regen is great as when i rode the regen - i had to pedal to get any speed downhill : ) - some good grade
I am also considering a gas motor - suggested by some - temporarily - although not at all my first choice. I will be in Mt. shasta in less than a month, and would like to have this with me and motorized : )
thank you all - My decision is still pending as to what to do - especially with fund availability involved! I so appreciate all the great advice and input.
Ah - off to research more of what was posted - and to find someone with some of these bikes locally. I realize the only way to really know is to ride them : )

 

[lauradawn]

here are some of the reasons I like the e+

Safety
The unique in-wheel location of the battery and motor result in a vehicle with low center of gravity that is agile and easy to maneuver. The equal distribution of the system to the center front and back of the bike ensures balance. Top quality lightweight components were tested and selected for use in our system, ensuring a smooth and unburdened ride.
Versatility
The E+ is designed in a way that the motor and bike gears are completely independent. This allows users the option of using the E+ as a standard bicycle with pedal power only, relying on the electric power system for motion, or customizing their experience with a combination of pedaling and electric power to fit their needs. This flexible system makes the E+ an ideal bike for a variety of uses and functions, requiring as much or as little personal effort as desired.. .
The advanced electric system is virtually silent, offering all the benefits of a power-assisted ride without loud or distracting noise.
Smart Functionality
The E+ has a small LCD display unit on the handlebar that combines functions of a bike computer with that of an electric vehicle. It provides quick access to riding information such as bike speed, odometer, battery charge remaining, and much more. It can also be used to enable a security mode that locks the rear bike wheel, and can be removed when leaving the bike unattended for ultimate security.
Excellent Range
The E+ has a range of 35 miles at a speed of 10 mph and 25 miles at a speed of 15 mph, all with motor power alone. This range can easily be extended to 40+ miles with the use of the pedal and motor combined.

And from the technical part of the site:
http://epluselectricbike.com/faqs/detailed-engineering-information-electric-bikes/

The electric bicycle motor, or E+ propulsion system, is developed around a 750 – 1000 watt peak rated permanent magnet synchronous electric motor operating at 36v. The motor is designed in an outer rotor radial magnet configuration, which allows maximum peak torque to mass ratio within such a design package. This basic design is well known and widely used. However, the challenges of achieving 750 – 1000 watts of continuous power while dissipating the associated heat and providing for vibration free and reliable long term performance have not been widely met by competitive offerings. These challenges are greater when combined, as with E+, with integrating all motor power and control circuitry into the housing of the motor. To our knowledge, the proprietary E+ EMS-1 motor is the only one in the market to offer all of these achievements.

I sound like an advertisement for them! I rode this bike and LOVED it!
Just cost is holding me back.
So still deciding
Thank you so much for all the input!
I may at least find a less expensive lipo battery : )

 

[snowranger]

My recommendation is to go with a reliable used gas scooter. Even with that E+ bike built for you, the possibility of a breakdown with that much climbing is much higher than the gas scooter.

You might try summiting from the Brewer Creek side. There's more snow and less rockfall. I finally made it last month after three tries. The ski down was a bonus too. Good luck.

 

[swbluto]

My recommendation is to go with a reliable used gas scooter. Even with that E+ bike built for you, the possibility of a breakdown with that much climbing is much higher than the gas scooter.

You might try summiting from the Brewer Creek side. There's more snow and less rockfall. I finally made it last month after three tries. The ski down was a bonus too. Good luck.

I'm not sure if you noticed the "silence" requirement.

 

[Evoforce]

Oh no! Well you gotta find out for yourself. Good luck. If you are going to be charging your batteries while in town I would not do lipo. Ask some of the guys on here that have it and tell them your plans on where and when you are going to charge up. There are very particular charging methods and risks with lipo. I have only second hand infor but from what I hear you need first hand info. The bike on the otherhand. You will be spending alot more money for less product and performance based on what I see at their website. And if you upgrade to what you need from them, will cost you lots more mulah then doing it a different way. Battery ratings and motor are everything for what you are asking to do. You are at the upper limit. Anyway...good luck, have fun, enjoy, and when you decide to upgrade(like most of us go through), we will still be here to push our opinions around. Sincerely....Ed

 

[veloman]

After all this analyzing, I think if she can accept the modest noise of a Subaru Robin 35cc 4 stroke engine, mounted on a friction drive with a top speed of 22mph, that would be far far less expensive and easier to use.
http://www.staton-inc.com/Details.asp?ProductID=2738

 

[FMB42]

You will, of course, need a CA "green sticker" for any gas powered ATV or cycle in order to ride on Mt. Shasta. Most gas powered bicycle engine kits do not meet the CA emissions (i.e. "green sticker") requirements and, as such, are not legal for use (or purchase) in CA. You will, btw, also need a permit to go above 10,000 ft. (on Mt. Shasta).

As for using Lipo batteries, I strongly suggest that you carefully read the following information found in the link below:

http://rcvehicles.about.com/od/rcbattery/tp/LiPo_Battery_Pack_Safety.htm

Please note that "charging (lipo) batteries should never be left unattended and should never be charged while inside your vehicle".

Some important questions here would be:

1. How much experience do you have with high altitude climbing? Please note that "altitude sickness" can be a very serious health issue above 10,000 ft.

2. How much experience do you have with mountain biking? Please note that "climbing" (peddling, pushing, or powering) a bike to the summit of a steep hill or mountain is often much easier and far safer than riding back down the steep decent itself.

3. How much experience do you have with the maintenance and care of bicycles (tune ups, tire repairs, etc.).

4. How much experience do you have with the maintenance and care of electric and/or gas powered vehicles or devices?


I would, if you are relatively inexperienced with some or all of the above, recommend that you consider gaining additional experience by starting out with less demanding trails and routes. The last thing we want is for you to be injured and/or stranded while attempting to summit a mountain peak such as Shasta.

Btw, we admire your determination!

 

[snowranger]

My recommendation is to go with a reliable used gas scooter. Even with that E+ bike built for you, the possibility of a breakdown with that much climbing is much higher than the gas scooter.

You might try summiting from the Brewer Creek side. There's more snow and less rockfall. I finally made it last month after three tries. The ski down was a bonus too. Good luck.

I'm not sure if you noticed the "silence" requirement.

I kind of forgot about that, but who's going to hear you out there except for the animals?

FMB, she's not going to summit with a bicycle just get to the trailhead and climb from there. I would love to see someone try that though.

 

[jag]

Two different needs are mentioned in the posts:

1. Recreationally enjoying the trails

2. Going to town for groceries, errands etc.

The first suggests a light quiet ride, but little need for speed, and maybe significant pedal assist is possible/desirable for workout.

The second suggests a powerful ride (when needed one may wish to get to town and back pretty quickly) with significant range, but light weight may not be so much of an issue.

While in principle a high end e-bike could be built to satisfy both: A powerful but light motor. Two batteries. Use one for light riding, both for going to town. A fast charge system for charging while in town. (How about some solar panels on the camper also?). This would however be expensive. Especially the batteires.

It might be better to split the needs.

A used light motorcycle or moped gets quickly to and from town and instead of needing hours to charge can be filled at the station. Most places I've lived it's been possible to buy a good used one for a few hundred $.

A light ebike with a moderate battery for the recreational riding. Cell_man's kit or a BMS battery kit can be had for slightly above $200 with shipping from China. A good used MTB can be had for $100 if one settles for the less fashionable rigid fork, or front suspension ones. Batteries I'm unsure about. LiFePO4 can be had for around $200 for a 36V 6 and up Ah, but the well known sellers tend to charge more. Maybe safer to go with a known like a ping for $289.00 + $80 shipping. (maybe share shipping cost with someone)

More turn key kits with local support can be had from north american sellers for a bit more.