Custom controller settings for combined torque and cadence sensor by NCTE

rider101

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Hello

As my first post, I would like to ask a technical question.

I decided to order NCTE torque sensor (same as is used in Brompton) which also has cadence sensor in it because it can be used with belt drive and my crankset.
Therefore I will need custom made controller for it and the problem is the factory does not know what settings to use for the torque sensor/cadence sensor part so that it will work properly.

Am I wrong or, will the solution be just to copy this diagram from the torque/cadence sensor's factory instructions in above diagram to the settings of the controller (the text in red) and it should work ok? Any advice would be most appreciated as I get only one shot at this custom controller which is expensive to arrange.
Thank you in advance for any advice.
dbsdb.png
49732.jpg
 
If you use a standard cheap "dumb" controller that uses just a throttle for input (not PAS), then you can use the Cycle Analyst v3 from Grin Tech http://ebikes.ca to read the torque sensor (and cadence) and create a throttle output that will operate the controller however you want it to.

It already has presets for a number of torque sensors, probably including the NCTE (Iv'e used the THUN and the TDCM with it).


THe CA itself is a bit expensive, but lets you use virtually any controller with a throttle input, so you don't need custom stuff--choose an off the shelf unit that has the other features you need, that allows throttle-only operation, and let the CA do the rest. :)

You do have to go thru all the menus and set it up for your system and desired operation, but it's fairly easy and Grin usually has good support (they may even be able to set most of it up for you before sending it, if you have the information they need).



As for the custom controller...if the factory doesn't already know (or can't figure out on their own) how to adapt their controller to the output of the sensor, I wouldn't put any bets on them being able to do it right the first time. For any designer or engineer working somewhere like that, it should be trivial. If it's not actually a factory but is just a seller, then they are likely taking your info, translating it however they think it should be, then telling whoever they buy from to buy one with that setting from somewhere, and maybe the info is right and maybe they understand what it means and maybe they translate it right, and maybe you end up with something that does what you're after.... :/


Another issue is that all of these sensors require calibration in the device that reads them, as they vary slightly in manufacturing from unit to unit, and they change output a bit over time, and some are sensitive enough to need zeroing out at every power-on. If not calibrated correctly, they either don't respond to pedal force correctly or they may have output enough to start the controller driving the motor even without your feet on the pedals. The CA has the ability to recalibrate anytime you want to in the onboard menus. The controller might not. (systems like the TSDZ2 with built in torque sensor autocalibrate at power on each time, for instance).
 
thanks a lot for your reply, I am getting a bit worried if they'll get it right... actually the facotry is Lishui and it's direct communication with them
Maybe showing this file to them might do the trick?

It's strange that I can't get them to solve the issue for me despite them being a quite big brand, so any help is most valuable, I hope it will work out
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rider101 said:
It's strange that I can't get them to solve the issue for me despite them being a quite big brand,

I'm surprised they are willing to customize it, unless you ordered a large quantity of them.
 
Here's the catch:

Without knowing exactly what they specifically need to know, what they need to do, to make whichever controller you're getting do whatever function it is that it doesn't do now, it's pretty tough to say what to tell them.


If you can get them to tell you clearly what specific information they need from you to do the modifications, then we may be able to help you find that and provide it.


We know what the torque sensor does, and pretty much how it does it.

We don't know what Lishui knows already, and what they don't know. Or what they know but don't understand.

We don't know what the controller itself already does, and what it doesn't do, or how it is designed to do them. (partly because we don't know which of their controller designs they would be starting with to modify for your usage)

We don't know what they need to change, or how they are planning to change it. I would guess it is all in software, because the hardware probably already all exists to read the sensor.

We can guess some of it, but it's an engineering (and programming) change to add a control method to a controller that it does not presently support. Not necessarily a difficult one for the engineers that created it, but it would probably be for us. (not counting the people that wrote the open-source firmware for LiShui controllers / displays elsewhere in the forum--which, BTW, you may wish to look into to see if it already supports your desired sensor and application: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=106862 ).


And for us to really tell them exactly how to do this, we would need information they're not going to provide: We'd need to know how the controller already works, and what it can and can't do that your project needs it to do. This may not be hardware, but is almost certainly software in the controller that reads the device's outputs and converts it's output to what the controller needs to tell the motor what to do. It may even include having to write new menus for their display on the controller for calibrating the controller to the sensor initially and possibly repeatedly as the sensor varies over it's lifespan. I'm pretty sure they won't provide their code for us to figure out what to alter. ;)


But they themselves, as the company designing and building these controllers, should easily be able to just take the information from the torque sensor company, along with your specifics on how you need it to do what you want your project to do, and modify their own hardware and software to support it. ;)



Without knowing the details of your project and how you need it to do the job you are building it for, I think that there are a couple of probably simpler / more likely to lead to success paths if you'd like to pursue them or look into them:

If you are going to use the Lishui controllers, then if you use a compatible one to the OSFW discussed in the linked thread above, you can probably just skip the whole custom controller thing and get the right controller model and any other necessary bits to flash the OSFW on it, then setup the controller for the purpose you need it for. Before going down that road, I'd recommend reading that thread and it's linked pages to be sure it will do what you want, and if necessary posting your project requirements in detail on that thread and asking those working on it if it will do what you want.


Alternately, the CAv3 previously mentioned would probably add whatever functionality you need to any generic "dumb"throttle-only controller with no display/pas/etc.
 
amberwolf said:
you may wish to look into to see if it already supports your desired sensor
The NCTE sensor is already inplemented in the firmware, you can activate it by uncommenting the line in the main.h
https://github.com/EBiCS/EBiCS_Firmware/blob/6119b0dd36561f15bdd25ff405900fde12c6c64b/Inc/main.h#L90

But the firmware does not work for all Lishui controllers, only for the FOC controllers...

As a cheap alternative to the CycleAnalyst there is the "METOP"-project that generates a throttle signal from torque and cadence.
The arduino sketch has to be modified, to match the unusual logic of the NCTE, that the torque signal is falling with rising torque :D

METOP.png


regards
stancecoke
 
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