CYC PHOTON

[Bengy22]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfItwYWTklw
From video:

The new CYC model is coming. Some more information:
• Ground clearance is better than Bafang
• Price is slightly higher than BBSHD, MSRP 950 USD?
• Display Option DS103, SW102 (Eggrider Display should work)#
• Chainline depends on chainring (34, 38 and 50T available)
• Bottom Bracket BSA 68-83 or BB92 or BSA 100 or BSA 120 mm
• Speed according to bike and tires, I think 50 to 70 km/h should be possible

Inicial torque is good, but I'm more for a gentle start – since Bafang had nylon gearing and also the bike transmission is lasting longer. Seeing the temperature rising that fast, I found this is more important.

From that video 30a limited from the store but it can be set to 40a so quite impressive compared to the bbshd. Also apparently he tested 16s and it worked fine no issues so that's good. But hitting temps of 112c after .6km (albeit on a hill) at 20c ambient and 30a seems concerning to me. My 45a bbshd is hard to get to the 60c limit even with ambient temps at 30c+ unless I'm super heavy on the throttle up hills or maintaining speeds above 35mph. At 20c I don't have any temp concerns unless again I'm going 35mph for a good bit. Interested to see what others report on these temps

 

[Bengy22]

Did we get a release date on when the store page will go live to purchase?

 

[biphaeboh]

Any ideas as to why it is heating up so quickly?

 

[pxl666]

Any ideas as to why it is heating up so quickly?

possible the temp sensor is in the right place

 

[szkuba]

Looked at the specs on the photon..

190mm Q factor is crazy wide and unnecessarily so.. will lead to very poor pedaling biomechanics for most people.
Maximum pedaling cadence is stated at 190rpm.. a typical pedaling cadence is more like 80-100rpm... so that's weird.

Why would you make a lower power mid drive with these characteristics.. with lower power levels, you want to be able to pedal along.. so the crank width should be closer to normal width and the cadence should be normal human cadence..
.....

Indeed the Q factor is crazy wide...
In regards to cadence it not straight forward. Even if it support up to 190 does not mean this is the peak power delivery. I was riding Yamaha PW-X2 motor on trails and like its characteristics . It support up to 160-170 but peak power is at 100 to 120. CYC app does allow to define at what cadence you have the peak power.

 

[Atak_Snajpera]

Precisely this option determines max power for CYC motor

CYC uses very simple formula for calculating motor power (for X1 STEALTH)
MOTOR INPUT POWER (Watts) = AVERAGE HUMAN POWER (Watts) * PEDALEC POWER GAIN * (AVERAGE PEDAL RPM / PEDAL SPEED MAP END RPM * 3) * (SELECTED ASSIST LEVEL / MAX ASSIST LEVEL)

 

[burner77]

Sorry, I had to remove the video… since it isn't the stock version. Means it will be even better

 

[pxl666]

Sorry, I had to remove the video… since it isn't the stock version. Means it will be even better

did they ask you ?

 

[burner77]

Sorry, I had to remove the video… since it isn't the stock version. Means it will be even better

did they ask you ?

Yes, CYC… I will make a new video, when the stock version is out

 

[1boris]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULq7VbJE68A

 

[szkuba]

...
CYC uses very simple formula for calculating motor power (for X1 STEALTH)
MOTOR INPUT POWER (Watts) = AVERAGE HUMAN POWER (Watts) * PEDALEC POWER GAIN * (AVERAGE PEDAL RPM / PEDAL SPEED MAP END RPM * 3) * (SELECTED ASSIST LEVEL / MAX ASSIST LEVEL)

Actually was thinking about this formula but still cannot guess the idea behind. In the OSF used on TSDZ2 or Kunteng the fomula is proportional to rider power only (torque * cadence) with some calibration coefficient like assist level and current but principle is very simple. So here if the calculation output is proportional to the rider power output AND average cadence then it mean its proportional to the expotential cadence value ... Best would be of course to try it in life but now i cannot predict how it really works ... :wink:

 

[Atak_Snajpera]

Keep in mind that pedalec power gain value (default 1.5) and pedal speed map end (default 120 RPM) both Can be changed. If you want torque sensor to be more dominant then you increase both values. For example PPG 2.0 and PSME 150 RPM. You do opposite if you prefer Cadence sensor to be dominant. From my experimence that formula works very well.

 

[biphaeboh]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULq7VbJE68A

Maybe it is too small? Not enough thermal mass, might explain why it heats up so much.

 

[pxl666]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULq7VbJE68A

Maybe it is too small? Not enough thermal mass, might explain why it heats up so much.

the guy is riding with throttle . this explains all for me .

 

[ornias]

This design looks to basically be an improved version of the TSDZ2 from a technical perspective...

This can be seen by the big round housing housing the torque sensor+main gear, combined with the "gearing" on the axle to transfer power to the torque sensor.

Would love to see a teardown though!

It also seems like they choosen the other option for EU compliance (1 is firmware limiting to prevent continues use about a certain wattage, 2 is temperature limiting by gimping cooling). Which I think is an interesting choice...

With the 110nm peak(!) torque, i'm going to bet it's VERY similair with the TSDZ2 when it comes to the electromotor. As the TSDZ2 actually has a 110-120nm peak(!) torque
Because actually, the tsdz2 is one of the few motors where the 80-90nm torque rating is during actuall use, not peak at zero rpm.

 

[ornias]

well...they seem to know what they're doing right ? if this would be tsdz2 built like bbs02 that's fine. if this would be tsdz2 that won't overheat and keep running 600w constantly ,I'm in . of course it greatly depends on the price. tsdz2 is really cheap and capable of delivering tons of fun even at stock configuration

If you fix the parts of the TSDZ2 that are weak with improved versions (New axle, japanese bearings, steel cooling plates) that would add about 100-150 euro's to the TSDZ2. Which is slightly less than 400 euro's itself.

So I think 650 euro, for what looks-to-be essentially a fully redesigned TSDZ2, is very reasonable. Whereas for 1200euro, I can literally redesign even the torque sensor AND have it made in china AND buy go have a diner somewhere with the wife.

 

[pxl666]

well...they seem to know what they're doing right ? if this would be tsdz2 built like bbs02 that's fine. if this would be tsdz2 that won't overheat and keep running 600w constantly ,I'm in . of course it greatly depends on the price. tsdz2 is really cheap and capable of delivering tons of fun even at stock configuration

If you fix the parts of the TSDZ2 that are weak with improved versions (New axle, japanese bearings, steel cooling plates) that would add about 100-150 euro's to the TSDZ2. Which is slightly less than 400 euro's itself.

So I think 650 euro, for what looks-to-be essentially a fully redesigned TSDZ2, is very reasonable. Whereas for 1200euro, I can literally redesign even the torque sensor AND have it made in china AND buy go have a diner somewhere with the wife.

you mean 1200e is the price for photon ?
can you elaborate "for 1200euro, I can literally redesign even the torque sensor AND have it made in china" ?

 

[Bengy22]

That's what I was thinking, seems like its mostly an improved tsdz2 with the ability to turn the amps to 40, but seems like that will only be for a very short about of time before thermal throttling. Need more real world tests to come out already. I saw a small clip of the motor being installed and in the comments the poster mentioned it would be released late OCT so I would have to guess a Halloween will be the day you can order it. In that video they mentioned the price will be $950 which seems steep imo, a tsdz2 is around $525 for a kit with OSF, so almost a 2x price increase. Not to mention the new stealth which supposedly is going to be a lot quieter, specs a lot better and coming in at the same price. I wish they would have beefed up the motor more to bbshd power capabilities, that price tag for would be way more appealing and I'm sure would have taken some of the bbshd customers. But after watching that ride video I'm not sure many people are going to cross shop the bbshd and photon unless the price goes down a bit imo

 

[ornias]

That's what I was thinking, seems like its mostly an improved tsdz2 with the ability to turn the amps to 40, but seems like that will only be for a very short about of time before thermal throttling. Need more real world tests to come out already. I saw a small clip of the motor being installed and in the comments the poster mentioned it would be released late OCT so I would have to guess a Halloween will be the day you can order it. In that video they mentioned the price will be $950 which seems steep imo, a tsdz2 is around $525 for a kit with OSF, so almost a 2x price increase. Not to mention the new stealth which supposedly is going to be a lot quieter, specs a lot better and coming in at the same price. I wish they would have beefed up the motor more to bbshd power capabilities, that price tag for would be way more appealing and I'm sure would have taken some of the bbshd customers. But after watching that ride video I'm not sure many people are going to cross shop the bbshd and photon unless the price goes down a bit imo

To be fair: The target audience is BBS02 and TSDZ2, not BBSHD.
They have a different offering range for BBSHD alternatives.

1000w nominal power with 40A peak 2000w, does not seem to be that-far off from the BBSHD though...

But anyway:
But these prices for a (relatively) low power kit, are insane. I think they need to redo their market research. These types kits sell because they are relatively cheap and/or regulation enforce 250w limits anyway.

People that go pay 1200euro incl. tax (so the 1200 seems to be spot-on based on 950usd), would often rather get a decent ebike instead.
This is different from their other produces, where they offer kits to turn bikes into extreme speed-pedelecs, which is a totally different target audience.

---
Basically:
If I can fix the TSDZ2 axle design and get it produced (which i'm working on) to get rid of the bad tolerances and groves, I think the TSDZ2 is going to be able to get awkwardly close in terms of durability.

 

[pxl666]

I would say that tsdz2 is durable when used with some basic ebike rules in mind . primo - it's your support but it won't do your job for you . if you pull 200 300w from it you get decent power to climb up hill and use 600 700w only for steep and short attacks . 34t chainring is a must and 50t cassette is rather a standart size these days . of course I speak in terms if mtb and enduro mountain trips . if used for asphalt you basically need thermal control with 60C throttling and 90C cut off and you pretty much set . of course you still have to give relative power to use bike as a bike not emoto

not to say that tsdz2 is the king in terms of price and part availability. if photon will exceed this price substantially I see no market for it . it can be more expensive but not much more . especially given that fact of using proprietary chainring what might turn out to be deal breaker for ppl like me

 

[maiz]

That's what I was thinking, seems like its mostly an improved tsdz2 with the ability to turn the amps to 40, but seems like that will only be for a very short about of time before thermal throttling. Need more real world tests to come out already. I saw a small clip of the motor being installed and in the comments the poster mentioned it would be released late OCT so I would have to guess a Halloween will be the day you can order it. In that video they mentioned the price will be $950 which seems steep imo, a tsdz2 is around $525 for a kit with OSF, so almost a 2x price increase. Not to mention the new stealth which supposedly is going to be a lot quieter, specs a lot better and coming in at the same price. I wish they would have beefed up the motor more to bbshd power capabilities, that price tag for would be way more appealing and I'm sure would have taken some of the bbshd customers. But after watching that ride video I'm not sure many people are going to cross shop the bbshd and photon unless the price goes down a bit imo

To be fair: The target audience is BBS02 and TSDZ2, not BBSHD.
They have a different offering range for BBSHD alternatives.

1000w nominal power with 40A peak 2000w, does not seem to be that-far off from the BBSHD though...

But anyway:
But these prices for a (relatively) low power kit, are insane. I think they need to redo their market research. These types kits sell because they are relatively cheap and/or regulation enforce 250w limits anyway.

People that go pay 1200euro incl. tax (so the 1200 seems to be spot-on based on 950usd), would often rather get a decent ebike instead.
This is different from their other produces, where they offer kits to turn bikes into extreme speed-pedelecs, which is a totally different target audience.

---
Basically:
If I can fix the TSDZ2 axle design and get it produced (which i'm working on) to get rid of the bad tolerances and groves, I think the TSDZ2 is going to be able to get awkwardly close in terms of durability.

if you're able to get this produced that would be a game changer. good luck!

 

[Atak_Snajpera]

Winter is coming so overheating will be hidden...

 

[ornias]

Looked at the specs on the photon..

190mm Q factor is crazy wide and unnecessarily so.. will lead to very poor pedaling biomechanics for most people.
Maximum pedaling cadence is stated at 190rpm.. a typical pedaling cadence is more like 80-100rpm... so that's weird.

Why would you make a lower power mid drive with these characteristics.. with lower power levels, you want to be able to pedal along.. so the crank width should be closer to normal width and the cadence should be normal human cadence..
.....

Indeed the Q factor is crazy wide...
In regards to cadence it not straight forward. Even if it support up to 190 does not mean this is the peak power delivery. I was riding Yamaha PW-X2 motor on trails and like its characteristics . It support up to 160-170 but peak power is at 100 to 120. CYC app does allow to define at what cadence you have the peak power.

190mm is insane.
With straight cranks the minimum you can with the TSDZ2 get is about 160mm

About those graphs:
I call totally bullshit on the yamaha graph. Unless they limited the motor in firmware under low RPM's, which would make it a non-existing limit, but just something they "made up" (aka: slap a powerfull motor on it and just artificially limit it into something worse)

Why? Electromotors have a correlation between speed and torque, with peak torque measured at relatively low RPM's. Like: that's an inherent(!) characterisitcs of the powercurved of the used motor technology.

 

[ornias]

duplicate

 

[ornias]

That's what I was thinking, seems like its mostly an improved tsdz2 with the ability to turn the amps to 40, but seems like that will only be for a very short about of time before thermal throttling. Need more real world tests to come out already. I saw a small clip of the motor being installed and in the comments the poster mentioned it would be released late OCT so I would have to guess a Halloween will be the day you can order it. In that video they mentioned the price will be $950 which seems steep imo, a tsdz2 is around $525 for a kit with OSF, so almost a 2x price increase. Not to mention the new stealth which supposedly is going to be a lot quieter, specs a lot better and coming in at the same price. I wish they would have beefed up the motor more to bbshd power capabilities, that price tag for would be way more appealing and I'm sure would have taken some of the bbshd customers. But after watching that ride video I'm not sure many people are going to cross shop the bbshd and photon unless the price goes down a bit imo

To be fair: The target audience is BBS02 and TSDZ2, not BBSHD.
They have a different offering range for BBSHD alternatives.

1000w nominal power with 40A peak 2000w, does not seem to be that-far off from the BBSHD though...

But anyway:
But these prices for a (relatively) low power kit, are insane. I think they need to redo their market research. These types kits sell because they are relatively cheap and/or regulation enforce 250w limits anyway.

People that go pay 1200euro incl. tax (so the 1200 seems to be spot-on based on 950usd), would often rather get a decent ebike instead.
This is different from their other produces, where they offer kits to turn bikes into extreme speed-pedelecs, which is a totally different target audience.

---
Basically:
If I can fix the TSDZ2 axle design and get it produced (which i'm working on) to get rid of the bad tolerances and groves, I think the TSDZ2 is going to be able to get awkwardly close in terms of durability.

if you're able to get this produced that would be a game changer. good luck!

Made a thread for it with specifications :-D