Dear America,

neptronix said:
..... gun ownership rates have no correlation with gun violence ...

Essential Politics: Gun deaths dropped in California as they rose in Texas: Gun control seems to work

By David LauterSenior Editor
May 27, 2022 5 AM PT
WASHINGTON —

Time was — not that long ago — that after a mass shooting, gun rights advocates would nod to the possibility of compromise before waiting for memories to fade and opposing any new legislation to regulate firearms.

This time, they skipped the preliminaries and jumped directly to opposition.

“The most effective tool for keeping kids safe is armed law enforcement on the campus,” Texas Republican Sen. Ted Cruz said to MSNBC a few hours after a shooter killed at least 21 people in Uvalde, Texas. “Inevitably, when there’s a murder of this kind, you see politicians try to politicize it. You see Democrats and a lot of folks in the media whose immediate solution is to try to restrict the constitutional rights of law-abiding citizens. That doesn’t work.”

The speed of that negative reaction provides the latest example of how, on one issue after another, the gap between blue America and red America has widened so much that even the idea of national agreement appears far-fetched. Many political figures no longer bother pretending to look for it.

Broad agreement on some steps

And yet, significant agreement does exist.

Poll after poll has shown for years that large majorities of the public agree on at least some, limited steps to further regulate firearms.

A survey last year by the Pew Research Center, for example, showed that by 87% to 12%, Americans supported “preventing people with mental illnesses from purchasing guns.” By 81% to 18% they backed “making private gun sales and sales at gun shows subject to background checks.” And by a smaller but still healthy 64% to 36% they favored “banning high-capacity ammunition magazines that hold more than 10 rounds.”

The gunman in Uvalde appears to have carried seven 30-round magazines, authorities in Texas have said.

So why, in the face of such large majorities, does Congress repeatedly do nothing?

One powerful factor is the belief among many Americans that nothing lawmakers do will help the problem.

Asked in that same Pew survey if mass shootings would decline if guns were harder to obtain, about half of Americans said they would go down, but 42% said it would make no difference. Other surveys have found much the same feeling among a large swath of Americans.

The argument about futility is one that opponents of change quickly turn to after a catastrophe. It’s a powerful rhetorical weapon against action.

“It wouldn’t prevent these shootings,” Sen. Marco Rubio (R-Fla.) said on CNN on Wednesday when asked about banning the sort of semiautomatic weapons used by the killer in Uvalde and by a gunman who killed 10 at a Buffalo, N.Y., supermarket 10 days earlier. “The truth of the matter is these people are going to commit these horrifying crimes — whether they have to use another weapon to do it, they’re going to figure out a way to do it.”

Republican Texas Gov. Greg Abbott made a similar claim at his news conference on Wednesday: “People who think that, ‘well, maybe we can just implement tougher gun laws, it’s gonna solve it’ — Chicago and L.A. and New York disprove that thesis.”

The facts powerfully suggest that’s not true.

Go back roughly 15 years: In 2005, California had almost the same rate of deaths from guns as Florida or Texas. California had 9.5 firearms deaths per 100,000 people that year, Florida had 10 and Texas 11, according to data from the National Center for Health Statistics.

Since then, California repeatedly has tightened its gun laws, while Florida and Texas have moved in the opposite direction.
Map shows the rate of gun deaths for each of the 50 states, ranging from 3.4 per 100,000 in Hawaii to 28.6 in Mississippi.

California’s rate of gun deaths has declined by 10% since 2005, even as the national rate has climbed in recent years. And Texas and Florida? Their rates of gun deaths have climbed 28% and 37% respectively. California now has one of the 10 lowest rates of gun deaths in the nation. Texas and Florida are headed in the wrong direction.

Obviously, factors beyond a state’s laws can affect the rate of firearms deaths. The national health statistics take into account differences in the age distribution of state populations, but they don’t control for every factor that might affect gun deaths.

Equally clearly, no law stops all shootings.

California’s strict laws didn’t stop the shooting at a Taiwanese church in Laguna Woods earlier this month, and there’s no question that Chicago suffers from a large number of gun-related homicides despite strict gun control laws in Illinois. A large percentage of the guns used in those crimes come across the border from neighboring states with loose gun laws, research has shown.

The overall pattern is clear, nonetheless, and it reinforces the lesson from other countries, including Canada, Britain and Australia, which have tightened gun laws after horrific mass shootings: The states with America’s lowest rates of gun-related deaths all have strict gun laws; in states that allow easy availability of guns, more people die from them.

Fear of futility isn’t the only barrier to passage of national gun legislation.

Hardcore opponents of gun regulation have become more entrenched in their positions over the last decade.

Mostly conservative and Republican and especially prevalent in rural parts of the U.S., staunch opponents of any new legislation restricting firearms generally don’t see gun violence as a major problem but do see the weapons as a major part of their identity. In the Pew survey last year, just 18% of Republicans rated gun violence as one of the top problems facing the country, compared with 73% of Democrats. Other surveys have found much the same.

Strong opponents of gun control turn out in large numbers in Republican primaries, and they make any vote in favor of new restrictions politically toxic for Republican officeholders. In American politics today, where most congressional districts are gerrymandered to be safe for one party and only a few states swing back and forth politically, primaries matter far more to most lawmakers than do general elections.

Even in general elections, gun issues aren’t the top priority for most voters. Background checks and similar measures have wide support, but not necessarily urgent support.

Finally, in an era defined by “negative partisanship” — suspicion and fear of the other side — it’s easy to convince voters that a modest gun control proposal is just an opening wedge designed to lead to something more dramatic.

That leads to a common pattern when gun measures appear on ballots: They do less well than polling would suggest.

The same thing happens to measures in Congress. Nine years ago, for example, supporters of gun control made their last big push for legislation, after the slayings of 26 people, including 20 children, at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Conn.

Then, as now, polls showed strong support for requiring background checks for sales that currently evade them. But support for the legislation was sharply lower than support for the general idea, Pew found.

Almost 8 in 10 Republican gun owners favored background checks in general, they found, but when asked about the specific bill, only slightly more than 4 in 10 wanted it to pass. When asked why they backed the general idea but opposed the specific one, most of those polled cited concerns that the bill would set up a “slippery slope” to more regulation or contained provisions that would go further than advertised.

Faced with that sort of skepticism from voters, Republican senators who had flirted with supporting the bill mostly walked away, and it failed.

Then-Vice President Joe Biden led the unsuccessful effort to pass that bill. Nearly a decade later, the political factors impeding action have only grown more powerful.
Texas school shooting

The recent string of devastating shootings has renewed calls for tighter gun restrictions. But as Kevin Rector reported, a loosening of gun laws is almost certainly coming instead, largely because of an expected decision from the Supreme Court, which is likely to strike down a broad law in New York that doesn’t allow individuals to carry guns in public without first demonstrating a “special need” for self-defense.

For all the impassioned speeches and angry tweets, for all the memes and viral videos of gun control proponents quaking with rage, most of the energy and political intensity has been on the side of those who favor greater gun laxity, Mark Barabak wrote.

The shooting has generated a lot of questions from parents about what their own schools are doing for safety. Howard Blume looked at what California officials say about school security.
The latest from Washington

Biden marked the second anniversary of George Floyd’s murder by a Minneapolis police officer by signing an executive order aimed at reforming policing at the federal level. As Eli Stokols reported, Wednesday’s order falls short of what Biden had hoped to achieve through legislation. It directs all federal agencies to revise their use-of-force policies, creates a national registry of officers fired for misconduct and provides grants to incentivize state and local police departments to strengthen restrictions on chokeholds and no-knock warrants.

Sluggish response and questionable decisions by the Food and Drug Administration worsened the nation’s infant formula shortage, agency officials told lawmakers at a congressional hearing. “You’re right to be concerned, and the public should be concerned,” said FDA Commissioner Robert Califf. The agency’s response “was too slow and there were decisions that were suboptimal along the way,” Anumita Kaur reported.

Only a couple of months ago, U.S. and European officials said a renewal of the Iran nuclear deal was “imminent.” But with little progress since then, and a shifting global geopolitical scene, the top U.S. envoy for the Iran negotiations testified Wednesday that prospects for reviving the Iran deal are “at best, tenuous,” Tracy Wilkinson reported. “We do not have a deal,” the Biden administration’s special envoy for Iran, Robert Malley, told the Senate Foreign Relations Committee.

Cuba will not attend next month’s Summit of the Americas, a major conference to take place in Los Angeles, after the U.S. refused to extend a proper invitation, the country’s president, Miguel Díaz-Canel, announced Wednesday. As Wilkinson reported, the decision throws the summit, which is crucial to the U.S.’ ability to demonstrate its influence in the Western Hemisphere, into further disarray.
The latest from California

GOP Rep. Young Kim would seem to have a relatively easy path to reelection in November — the national mood favors her party, she has a lot of money and the newly drawn boundaries for her Orange County district give her more Republican constituents. But Kim is suddenly campaigning with a sense of urgency, Melanie Mason and Seema Mehta report. She’s unleashed $1.3 million in advertising, and outside allies are coming to her aid with more spending. Most of it is aimed at fending off Greg Raths, an underfunded GOP opponent who has been a staple on the political scene in Mission Viejo, the district’s largest city.

Gov. Gavin Newsom and top legislative Democrats pledged Wednesday to expedite gun legislation. Among the bills are measures that would require school officials to investigate credible threats of a mass shooting, allow private citizens to sue firearm manufacturers and distributors, and enact more than a dozen other policies intended to reduce gun violence in California, Taryn Luna and Hannah Wiley reported. “We’re going to control the controllable, the things we have control of,” Newsom said during an event at the state Capitol. “California leads this national conversation. When California moves, other states move in the same direction.”

The Los Angeles mayor’s race has seemingly devolved in recent days into a rhetorical brawl between two of the city’s richest men, Benjamin Oreskes wrote. Hollywood mogul Jeffrey Katzenberg, who supports Rep. Karen Bass, says Rick Caruso’s history of supporting Republican candidates and being registered as a Republican a decade ago disqualifies him from being mayor. That came after Variety published an interview with Caruso in which he attacked the former Walt Disney Studios chairman for “lying” about him in ads by a pro-Bass independent expenditure committee predominantly funded by Katzenberg.

The growing corruption scandal in Anaheim has cost the city’s mayor his job, endangered the city’s planned $320-million sale of Angel Stadium to the team and provided a rare, unvarnished look at how business is done behind closed doors in the city of 350,000. Read our full coverage of the FBI probe into how the city does business.https://www.latimes.com/politics/ne...-of-futility-deters-action-essential-politics
 
The great ole debate

chive on and proceed on

I try to avoid news sometimes.
 
goatman said:
its not the gun
i think its time to start sterilizing democrats

On the other hand, if we simply "neutralize" all the gun owners, there would be nobody around who wants to do any shooting.... :twisted:

:D :bolt:
 
goatman said:
its not the gun
i think its time to start sterilizing democrats

For years I've said that in a just society, you could have either a child, a car, or a vote, but only one of the above. If you have a child, you will put the child's narrow interests above the good of society. If you have a car, you already demonstrated that your own temporary convenience is more important to you that the good of, well, everything. So that leaves folks who have neither one to plan for the future.

Just last week, I further opined that in a just society, you could choose between keeping guns and keeping your gonads. I think it's a good idea, and quite independent of political party.

It is the guns, and anybody who's willing to evaluate the data without single-mindedly trying to exonerate guns can see that.
 
This is planned, or else where are the workplace unions, workplace deaths ? How bout ohsha ?

She was not at home but at work in the type of place (school) where violence data indicates the probability high (data)
She deserved the police protection she gets every day after a slaughter.
On Friday our Police were gone BTW on to patrol away from the schools.
Did you notice they left schools unprotected after one day, again, big boy ?

Chalo said:
neptronix said:
Ah yeah, so now guns are black market and therefore mainly in the hands of criminals out there. Sounds like a great deal for the law abiding citizen..

It is a great deal for the law abiding citizen, who's many times more likely to shoot himself or another household member, or be shot by another household member, than he is to shoot an intruder. People think they're somehow safer with a gun in the house, but the data show a very different story.
 
Stealth_Chopper said:
She deserved the police protection she gets every day after a slaughter.
On Friday our Police were gone BTW on to patrol away from the schools.

Cops are always cops: worse than useless at best, often worse than whatever problem they're supposed to address. You can't fix them except by composting them. The best thing we can do is to take away their guns. But we can't realistically do that while all the retarded civilian chuds still have guns. So first things first.
 
Chalo said:
Live by the sword, die by the sword. That's not blaming; it's just observation.

I'll point out that none of the gun-toting dumb dicks in South Texas qualifies as a well-regulated militia. Well, here are some of the results of guns being in the hands of dumb dicks instead of well-regulated militias.

LMAO. So true. You won't be able to keep them out of their hands. Try to do so, you might soon have a civil war, arguably and justifiably so, as the most violent people in our culture are not the random dumb dicks with guns, but those who have been hired to serve the class of aristocrats who try to micromanage everyone's lives and who have engaged in empire building abroad. Millions of innocent people killed over the decades, greatly outnumbering mass shootings.

Chalo said:
But we can't realistically do that while all the retarded civilian chuds still have guns. So first things first.

The retarded civilian chuds with guns are less of a threat to me than cops with guns, for the latter are allowed to murder with legal immunity, and do so more often than not without any consequence to themselves. It is for this reason in part that we have seen increasing unrest in U.S. cities. People are getting tired of the lack of accountability. If anything, we need guns to put ourselves on as close to equal footing as possible with either civilian chuds OR corrupted law enforcement. Further, if anyone should have their guns taken away, start with the military/government. They cause more destruction and take more lives than any other demographic. Until that day comes, I'm all for everyone being armed, even if they're a civilian chud.

When I was in a public high school, bringing a weapon to school may have even saved my life. The bullies were white upper-middle class gangster-wannabes and part of the football team, and therefore a protected class of students. They got away with anything and everything including assault and even rape thanks to coddling by administrators making money off of their athletics. A student bullied and repeatedly assaulted by them even committed suicide because the school did nothing to help protect him from these bullies, and went so far as to suspend(or worse) anyone who defended themselves from them. Being scrawny, a weapon put me on sort-of equal footing with them when the time came. I never shot the school up, either. I was a nerd and wanted to study and get scholarships and didn't have a violent bone in my body. But something had to be done. Fortunately, I never had to harm or kill anyone when the circumstances were pushed. Being the cowards they were, they backed the hell down, and went sniveling to school staff. School staff interrogated me, had cops, and didn't find a damn thing. I was a straight-A student who never got in trouble, and all I had to do was deny, deny, deny. I felt like a scumbag for lying to school administrators, but deception is not in my nature, and I wasn't stupid. I knew the consequences. The bullies left me alone after that, because they KNEW that if they pushed me, I'd have defended myself against them with whatever means were necessary to do so. Screw them AND the school staff. I got to attend a much nicer school the year after when my father moved, and it was a night and day difference. While I still didn't fit in, I didn't have to worry about ANY of that crap as I did at the previous school, and not once needed to carry a weapon to that new school or ever felt a need to do so, so didn't. When stuck in what amounts to a prison, one needs to protect themselves from those who intend violence, lest one end up a victim of that violence, but in a non-hostile environment, it's not much a worry. Having a baseline of physical security does wonders for one's attitude regarding the need to be armed.

The U.S. is overall a hostile environment. Among so-called first world nations, its standard of living is at the bottom, and for the average person, is more comparable to a lower-tier 2nd world country. Most people who have guns don't have one as a metaphorical display of their gonads, but as a tool. Things get crazy in many U.S. neighborhoods, and you never know what can happen.

The U.S. has no moral fabric or social safety net coupled with a highly unequal distribution of wealth and power, in addition to rampant militarism and a "comply or die" attitude among its legal system, and it is from this that its gun problems and overall general propensity for violence stem. Violence and slavery are the very foundation of this country's existence. Banning or even more heavily restricting guns will shift the chosen weapon for mass murder to other means if it does reduce their usage in random acts of violence, but I wouldn't count on even that. Per capita, there are more guns in the U.S. than in Afghanistan. Finding ways to commit mass murder, if one really is motivated, is not that hard, as no guns are needed. Everything a person needs for that can be purchased at a local Walmart. Guns are simply the most convenient and accessible tools for the job, and no amount of background checks, licenses, or even outright bans will change that, because someone who wants to use guns for an illegal purpose will not have any regard for the legality or lack thereof with regard to possessing them.
 

I wonder whose idea was to strap him to bike with a toe clips?
 
Are you talking about that lame gov. of Florida?

You should be planning a move to France. le Pen's party just got enough votes to force Macron to let the Nazis into his government.

Mr. D won't even let the cruise industry run itself the way it wants. So much for capitalism in America...
 
nicobie said:
Are you talking about that lame gov. of Florida?

You should be planning a move to France. le Pen's party just got enough votes to force Macron to let the Nazis into his government.

As if Macron isn't an authoritarian himself. He's a far-right corporatist pretending to be a "centrist", much akin to how the so-called Democratic party in the U.S. operates. He even threatened to have the Yellowvest protesters shot, and like the U.S. government, illegally spies on the people of his country in every aspect of their lives. That battle was long ago lost in France I'm afraid.

At least LePen isn't pretending to be something she's not, and may in fact be the less authoritarian of the two when you compare them.

What is sad is that an authoritarian like DeSantis is among the least authoritarian politicians within the U.S. That dude isn't far from being a theocrat himself, yet on many issues, he's less authoritarian than the vast majority of Democrats in the U.S. congress, most exemplified by refusing to go along with supporting all of the lockdown hysteria and forced experimental medical procedures on people as a condition of retaining employment. He's no leftist nor a civil libertarian by any stretch of the imagination. By the standards of 30 years ago, he is squarely extreme right and authoritarian, and still very much is those things. And, still being less authoritarian than virtually everyone else in U.S. politics, he could plausibly win the U.S. presidential election on that basis alone(if the election was honest, a condition that has probably never been the case in U.S. history) because increasing numbers of Americans are sick of being dictated to by the political class and the special interests who have purchased it. He could easily be groomed for the position by the GOP, much like Obama was previously by the Democratic Party. That's frightening.
 
The Toecutter said:
nicobie said:
Are you talking about that lame gov. of Florida?

You should be planning a move to France. le Pen's party just got enough votes to force Macron to let the Nazis into his government.

Please excuse my oversimplification of the current situation. I was just jousting with the Goatman over his comparison of trump.
 
The Toecutter said:
What is sad is that an authoritarian like DeSantis is among the least authoritarian politicians within the U.S.

For real? The chud can't even let a private corporation disagree with him so they can appease a large majority of the public for business's sake, but you think he's somehow less authoritarian that reasonably sane people?
 
Chalo said:
For real? The chud can't even let a private corporation disagree with him so they can appease a large majority of the public for business's sake, but you think he's somehow less authoritarian that reasonably sane people?

He didn't shut his state's entire economy down and force the population to stay in their homes against their will, or support forcing unwanted medical procedures on people, for starters, when most politicians from both parties went along with it. A few thousand dollars of stimulus do not make up for that when things were shut down in placed for years, when the amount given in those places doesn't even cover a month's basic no-frills living expenses for most. The full consequences of that have yet to manifest, but they will. Already the homeless population is growing at an exponential rate, some here of those on this forum greatly at risk of joining them.

DeSantis is still not reasonably sane, but then find a U.S. politician at the Federal or state level who is. Good luck. That ship sailed decades ago. Every last one of them, including "the squad", are corrupted in some way, shape, or form by special interest money and are exhibiting behaviors indicative of suffering from Cluster B personality disorders.

In fact, he's still a theocrat that's all for denying medical procedures on people that need/want them because of his personal religious views. That rubs me the wrong way just the same as forcing unwanted medical procedures onto people for political reasons does. I wouldn't ever vote for that chud. He can go choke on a Bible for all I care.
 
Nazi's? everyone knows the globalists are the nazi's, some even call them i-nazi's

look at ukraine, since when is supporting nazi's a good thing
up here in canada our deputy pm comes from a family of nazi supporters, her grandfather worked with the nazi's in ukraine during ww2 and she is close family friends with soros

our dictator pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4X382W0eysc

7d4592e098be1125.png

our pm and macron

51d94dd922ff5521.jpeg

zelensky

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPT4oGTOHRo
 
goatman said:
Nazi's? everyone knows the globalists are the nazi's, some even call them i-nazi's

look at ukraine, since when is supporting nazi's a good thing
up here in canada our deputy pm comes from a family of nazi supporters, her grandfather worked with the nazi's in ukraine during ww2 and she is close family friends with soros

Also true. The globalists may not technically be Nazis, but they're every bit as authoritarian and controlling as Nazis, and arguably even more insidious. And not because some of them might be butt buddies with each other(eg. Macron and Trudeau, but that's their own business and I won't judge them for that, as there is no shortage of issues worthy of judging them on).

As far as Ukraine goes, it's been a lost cause due to U.S. AND Russian meddling and should be left alone. The Ukrainian people need to be allowed to sort their own issues out. The U.S. helped assist a coup and rigged election that put literal Nazis into power in that country. Highly likely Zelenski has been threatened by them. Also highly likely Russia wouldn't even be there if the people of Crimea didn't agree to join Russia in 2014 and if the Nazis running Ukraine weren't murdering thousands of people in Crimea while trying to join NATO right on Russia's border, all with U.S. help. Total quagmire all around. The best thing to do would be to avoid that shitshow all together. Less lives will be lost and less resources will be squandered.
 
Wow. Y'all really fell in a BS hole you can't crawl out of, yeah?
 
The Toecutter said:
goatman said:
Nazi's? everyone knows the globalists are the nazi's, some even call them i-nazi's

look at ukraine, since when is supporting nazi's a good thing
up here in canada our deputy pm comes from a family of nazi supporters, her grandfather worked with the nazi's in ukraine during ww2 and she is close family friends with soros
As far as Ukraine goes, it's been a lost cause due to U.S. AND Russian meddling and should be left alone. The Ukrainian people need to be allowed to sort their own issues out. The U.S. helped assist a coup and rigged election that put literal Nazis into power in that country.

Oh god, they're both gonna start screaming AZOV AZOV before you know it. I can't wait to see them twist their heads into a pretzel to try and prove Putin isn't an Imperialist, but is really a crypto-secret communist whom is only raping wealth out of his nation as an ends-justify-the-means case to bring us true socialism, this time, we swear.

goatman said:
Mr.T is yesterdays news
its Mr.D's time to shine :wink:
At least you're admitting the right wing is desperately looking for it's next messiah. But you know bud, they all get nailed up eventually; and DeSantis is in deep caca because he allowed a lot of people to die from COVID while at the same time claiming death rates were higher to take more federal monies. But the GOP is just corruption with some ideology mixed in, and we all know you can fail upwards in America if you're openly shameless about it :lol:
 
The Toecutter said:
I love goatman's name. Every time I see it, I think of the Baphomet. It gives me the warm and fuzzies.

[youtube]2tY3qQd2FyA[/youtube]

reminds me of when Dauntless posted the same :D

had to check and see if there were any new sightings of him :wink:

https://youtu.be/jKOFriZfJgw?t=4
 
goatman said:
reminds me of when Dauntless posted the same :D

had to check and see if there were any new sightings of him :wink:

I almost never agreed with him on anything, and he was more than a bit mean-spirited, trollish, and abrasive to virtually everyone who didn't agree with him on something, but I kinda' miss old Daunt. He was still funny, and knowledgeable about many things.

And his comment is what prompted me to associate your name with the Baphomet. Couple that with my love of black metal, and it was imprinted.
 
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