gas price thread

[Hillhater]

Depends on how much/how frequent the stop and go is.…..

…..and dont forget the inclines . Even a steady speed up a hill will soak up more power than aero !
And downhill aero losses are offset by gravity assistance .

 

[ZeroEm]

Well there you go, seems everyone gets it. Don't see an argument. ICE wastes so much energy it's really not worth talking about. Hyper-milers get it. It's the mass getting up to speed then turn all that into heat thru the brakes. Running at any speed above 20mph is just pushing air. Even in my EV, try to coast to a stop, try not to use regen unless going to fast because that is a waste of energy too.

 

[CONSIDERABLE SHOUTING]

Which also makes me ask, what kit cars are built not only for track days but also are built for high-aero; I know from Grassroots Motorsports that the Locost's biggest weakness is it's Cd is ~0.42 and I think most Platovs are too expensive for most to get (Except MAYBE the D4). You could likely form and shape a new body for a Locost, but you will have problems moving the rear wheels "in" and expanding the front track as that'll change it's entire suspension dynamic.
God, long shot here but... the 80s Dodge Wraith, didn't that get a kit car form from the fans? I know that stock had a Cd of like, 0.21.

Counterweights don't use "tens of horsepower." They use zero. The only time you notice them is during acceleration, when you have more engine mass to accelerate. This energy is returned when you decelerate.

The power you gain is also not only from the loss of mass, but the consequence of having less rotational inertia allowing the engine to potentially spin to a higher RPM and thus, make more power- Mitsubishi 4G63's are proof of that, though with them it's a balance shaft and not counterweights directly on the crank itself. Old V6'es too (like Fords, I think the Vulcan is counterweighted). Since it's a bottom-end OUT and machine shop alteration tho, it's nothing that receives similar attentions to piston and rod weight or other things that also reduce rotating mass so I can't point to studies in-vacuum.

 

[The Toecutter]

Which also makes me ask, what kit cars are built not only for track days but also are built for high-aero; I know from Grassroots Motorsports that the Locost's biggest weakness is it's Cd is ~0.42 and I think most Platovs are too expensive for most to get (Except MAYBE the D4). You could likely form and shape a new body for a Locost, but you will have problems moving the rear wheels "in" and expanding the front track as that'll change it's entire suspension dynamic.

The Westfield 11 of 40-ish years ago was a replica of the Lotus 11. The 1957 Lotus 11 could do 132 mph on only 75 horsepower. 50 mpg driven on the street was not unheard of.

Trying to build one around a mechanical injection Cummins turbodiesel tuned to 1,000+ horsepower and then balancing the weight would be very interesting. The car would have to end up weighing significantly over 2,000 lbs to pull it off, when the original was around 990 lbs, largely due to chassis reinforcements and ballast needed to keep the weight distribution usable. But both performance AND fuel economy in such a machine would be ridiculous figures even by today's standards, and it would be EMP-proof.

God, long shot here but... the 80s Dodge Wraith, didn't that get a kit car form from the fans? I know that stock had a Cd of like, 0.21.

I'm not aware of a kit build of this concept. That car could get 40 mpg on the highway, even though it made somewhere around 400 horsepower. Dodge could totally have sold something like that in the early 1980s, when the average car was getting somewhere in the 1X mpg range and had anemic acceleration.

 

[JackFlorey]

Even in my EV, try to coast to a stop, try not to use regen unless going to fast because that is a waste of energy too.

Well, _most_ of it is recovered - and "coasting to a stop" is still using regen. But I do use neutral quite a bit in my EV, simply because it's more efficient to store potential energy in speed than via regen.

 

[JackFlorey]

The power you gain is also not only from the loss of mass, but the consequence of having less rotational inertia allowing the engine to potentially spin to a higher RPM and thus, make more power

Agreed there. Counterweights place limitations on engine speed and acceleration that can limit power - although that's different than efficiency.

 

[CONSIDERABLE SHOUTING]

That Eleven is pretty neat; wonder what it's engine bay looks like cause it's STUPID low.
Problem I see tho- we have to keep any kit or idea as reasonably accessible as possible. The Locost achieves that through literally having a racing chassis people have built for a few hundred bucks; gotta have that kind of saturation, and the ability to use common EV drivetrains like Tesla S and Leaf units.

I'm not aware of a kit build of this concept. That car could get 40 mpg on the highway, even though it made somewhere around 400 horsepower. Dodge could totally have sold something like that in the early 1980s, when the average car was getting somewhere in the 1X mpg range and had anemic acceleration.

I saw it in a youtube video that I can find later and post about movie cars; they really should have, because it was the last of the PACE cars and ended up inspiring the Viper released 4 years later. It also used essentially, the same underpinnings as the Plymouth Horizon/Dodge Omni and could have competed well against the MR2 and the Fiero if they could get the cost down.

Also, the Wraith looks rad as hell. 80s Aesthetic that could be massaged in a few small ways, a coupe that still has internal space and stowage. Seeing images from the movie it also has a high center tunnel and plenty of rear engine bay space, so arguably it'll have no problems taking a wide range of engines (and possibly even having rear 2+2 seating). The video had some dude that apparently found the OG molds to make his own; If I was gonna make a kit car, I'd make THAT one.

 

[The Toecutter]

…..and dont forget the inclines . Even a steady speed up a hill will soak up more power than aero !
And downhill aero losses are offset by gravity assistance .

For hypermilers operating an ICE or diesel vehicle, inclines can be a massive advantage. Going up the hill allows one to take advantage of the higher load required by the incline, which on a BSFC map, is generally at a more thermally-efficient operating point. Then going down the hill, they can coast without using fuel.

In my velomobiles, when operating with the motor shut off, hilly areas are a massive disadvantage, assuming no stops for either environment. I might crawl up the hill at 5 mph where almost all of my effort goes to overcoming force gravity exerted on mass, but going down it I can reach car speeds without pedaling. However, the overall average speed ends up lower than on flat ground for a given amount of pedal effort, simply because the average amount of aerodynamic drag force experienced is greatly higher in the hilly environment because the high speeds going down the hill entail a drag force that increases exponentially with speed instead of linearly. Going slow up the hill and fast down it results in the need to push MORE air out of the way overall, than maintaining the same average speed on flat ground.

Gravity assistance also has to be paid for by going up the hill either before or after going down it.

And in my city, I tend to have to forfeit that gravity assistance and hard-won momentum due to stops frequently being at the bottom of the hill. This is the absolute worst type of environment to take advantage of drag reduction. And even then, aerodynamic drag is still the most significant factor determining how fast my rolling average is for a given amount of pedaling effort.

I'm about to get my KMX going with the new rear shock today. It has the body shell removed, and when I rode it, in this hilly environment, removing the shell turned it from an 8-10 Wh/mi EV into a 40 Wh/mi EV! There are CARS weighing 10x as much that can do 100 Wh/mi, so do consider this. Without the shell, my 150-200 mile range @ 30-35 mph is now likely a 40-50 mile range on the same exact battery.

 

[The Toecutter]

That Eleven is pretty neat; wonder what it's engine bay looks like cause it's STUPID low.
Problem I see tho- we have to keep any kit or idea as reasonably accessible as possible. The Locost achieves that through literally having a racing chassis people have built for a few hundred bucks; gotta have that kind of saturation, and the ability to use common EV drivetrains like Tesla S and Leaf units.

The 11 is basically a 7 with better aero. The results spoke for themselves, and Lotus produced the Elite and the Europa as a result, both of which were 40+ mpg cars, back in the 1950s-70s. The Europa in particular is still faster than the average new car sold today 50 years later AND gets better fuel economy. They weren't built for fuel economy, either, but for racing! They also weren't at all reliable or inexpensive to keep operational. Which is why the kit car version of the 11 is so wonderful: they can be modified into something with Toyota reliability, allowing one to have a sports car that is actually economical to operate.

Within the auto industry, there has always been this unwritten rule that if you want a sports car, you should have to PAY out the ass to keep using it. And I think that overall philosophy is garbage. The Mazda Miata is a rare exception, but the car isn't actually the most inspiring performer either, also by design, when it would be inexpensive/easy to make it into something so much more.

I saw it in a youtube video that I can find later and post about movie cars; they really should have, because it was the last of the PACE cars and ended up inspiring the Viper released 4 years later. It also used essentially, the same underpinnings as the Plymouth Horizon/Dodge Omni and could have competed well against the MR2 and the Fiero if they could get the cost down.

The biggest factor impacting cost is production volume. Increasing the number of units sold with a given quantity of non-recurring engineering costs reduces the non-recurring engineering costs of each unit sold, and these costs are most of the cost to develop a car from the ground up. If someone could mass produce a Ferrari and all of its parts and there was a large enough market for it, it would not be out of the realm of possibility for it to be a $30,000 car. But because they are for the most part hand built, they cost orders of magnitude more than that. The closest real-world example to an "affordable" supercar from any OEM would be the Corvette, but it is laden with features and mass to pad more margins into it and could potentially be a much cheaper car with the same engine/transmission/driveline/suspension/tires without all the bloat.

Also, the Wraith looks rad as hell. 80s Aesthetic that could be massaged in a few small ways, a coupe that still has internal space and stowage. Seeing images from the movie it also has a high center tunnel and plenty of rear engine bay space, so arguably it'll have no problems taking a wide range of engines (and possibly even having rear 2+2 seating). The video had some dude that apparently found the OG molds to make his own; If I was gonna make a kit car, I'd make THAT one.

That would make a great EV platform, IMO. A 2,500 lb EV with a 400 lb battery pack and about 300 horsepower could be the ticket to an affordable $25-30k 300+ mile range sports car that can accelerate like cars 10x the cost and out corner them by virtue of being light and balanced. With such a low drag and weight, 150 Wh/mi would be a very realistic and achievable goal.

The fact that Mazda doesn't make a streamlined coupe version of its Miata inspired by the old Lotus 11/Elite/Europa is also a crying shame. They have the underpinnings of a potential 60+ mpg highway sports car right under their noses, and with streamlining and gearing changes, 180 mph top speeds could be in reach for a sub-$30k price tag. If Mazda made a production Miata with a front end that mimics the Miata Italia kit car, but streamlined the crap out of the sides and rear with features inspired by the Ferrari 250GTO or Alfa Romeo TZ but with a brutal emphasis on drag reduction rather than styling/aesthetics, they could have a real winner that still ends up looking beautiful. It might end up sort of looking like a Panhard CD Peugeot 66C but with Ferrari 250GTO styling cues. A sexy sports car with a Cd in the 0.1X area is perfectly possible, and the performance benefits from that drag reduction would be immense. It would also open the door to electrification without the need for a massive and heavy battery pack to get acceptable range, allowing the car to stay as light/nimble as it is with an ICE. But they'd probably never need to change their platform and design after that, which goes back to planned obsolescence being the problem...

 

[CONSIDERABLE SHOUTING]

That would make a great EV platform, IMO. A 2,500 lb EV with a 400 lb battery pack and about 300 horsepower could be the ticket to an affordable $25-30k 300+ mile range sports car that can accelerate like cars 10x the cost and out corner them by virtue of being light and balanced. With such a low drag and weight, 150 Wh/mi would be a very realistic and achievable goal.

I forgot that was also 80s dodge, so another reason they didn't make it production-scale is because they nearly bit the bullet literally 8-10 years prior and genuinely only made the Viper because it was SO wild for the era :lol: The history of the Dodge Aspen is... amazing.

Even looking at the picture there's a few things that could drop Cd further- you've got a scoop from the front bumper through the hood that could likely get deleted, and using a heat pump could likely shrink the front air gap further. Wiper blade's exposed, tires are exposed, and I'm not sure if the side ducts are genuinely needed for brake ducting with regen; if you can use the front scoop for a heat pump and duct air out for downforce, you could avoid needing a spoiler but frankly that's just me wondering aloud.

As for Mazda, they can't do that without altering the length of the wheelbase which also affects suspension design. Short suspension means smaller turning radius; the current ND still gets 36MPG for the EPA so 40 is doable on highway, I'd still take that.

 

[The Toecutter]

As for Mazda, they can't do that without altering the length of the wheelbase which also affects suspension design. Short suspension means smaller turning radius; the current ND still gets 36MPG for the EPA so 40 is doable on highway, I'd still take that.

They could make it a Kammtail. A figure in the upper 0.1X to low 0.2X while keeping the same wheelbase is very doable. Sex it up like a vintage 60s racer, add a bit more power, and they couldn't go wrong, especially if it retains something akin to its current price point. It would take sales away from more expensive cars.

 

[ZeroEm]

I need to let off the accelerator all the way to get regen to start working then to increase it need to start pushing the brakes. Think that is why they are working on a one pedal system.

by JackFlorey » Jul 03 2022 10:52am

ZeroEm wrote: ↑Jul 03 2022 5:55am
Even in my EV, try to coast to a stop, try not to use regen unless going to fast because that is a waste of energy too.

Well, _most_ of it is recovered - and "coasting to a stop" is still using regen. But I do use neutral quite a bit in my EV, simply because it's more efficient to store potential energy in speed than via regen.

 

[The Toecutter]

Old article, but even more relevant today now that gas prices are high:

https://dailycaller.com/2019/09/03/cities-towns-landscape-despair/

This landscape described in the above article is rapidly transitioning from "barely livable" to "unlivable" for all but the wealthy.

 

[CONSIDERABLE SHOUTING]

Old article, but even more relevant today now that gas prices are high:

https://dailycaller.com/2019/09/03/cities-towns-landscape-despair/

This landscape described in the above article is rapidly transitioning from "barely livable" to "unlivable" for all but the wealthy.

Damn thing paywalled me after one article. And they wonder why people fall for conspiracy websites all the time? It's cause they can actually read the damn things.

My FWB told me that I'm the only person they know in their late 20s-early 30s who owns their own home. Kind of surprised the article didn't talk about the inability for most cites to declare bankruptcy, which saved Detroit by forcing them to contend with their terrible finances and the globalization of the auto industry.

 

[speedmd]

Looks like they figured it out. :lol: Oil down some.

Geely (volvo) adds new compact starting under 10K Usd. https://insideevs.com/news/539437/geometry-ex3-costs-usd9250-china/
https://cdn.motor1.com/images/mgl/1mXmw/s3/geometry-ex3-chinese-spec-1.webp

 

[Skorohod]

Russia reporting in! I've just returned from my second long ever car trip around Russia, this time i went to a most southern town of a country - the ancient and exotic Derbent.

Went through 15 different regions, filled my tank in 6 of them. Finished with average fuel consumption of 6.3 l/100km (that would be roughly 37.34 MPG (US)). I've met on my way heavy traffic in a big cities, strong winds in a vast steppes, high-altitude mount passes (up to 2200 meters), potholed roads and gravel roads, so that's a pretty good consumption for such condiditons.

All gas was 95 RON ("mid-grade" in US). Prices differs from 50 roubles for liter to 54 roubles for liter (that would be from 3.2$/US gal to 3.5$/US gal with today exchange rate). FYI: all prices in Russia are listed with all possible taxes included, what you see on a price tag is exactly what you gonna pay from your pocket.

Took me 14893 roubles (256 USD) to cover 5145 kilometers (3197 miles).

 

[Ianhill]

Seems very cheap atleast 1/3rd cheaper than most of europe, i suppose the pain russia will feel from war won't be in oil prices or not as the war effort happens if they/putin can help it.

 

[Chalo]

i suppose the pain russia will feel from war won't be in oil prices or not as the war effort happens if they/putin can help it.

A dictator can artificially suppress gasoline prices, right up until he can't.

 

[The Toecutter]

A dictator can artificially suppress gasoline prices, right up until he can't.

The U.S. corporate dictatorship has been doing it for decades. Oil and oil-derived fuels are subsidized orders of magnitude more than any renewable energy is. The entire world has been artificially suppressing the price of gasoline, for that matter, by ignoring externalities associated with its production, storage, transportation, and use. Were externalities accounted for, gasoline would be well over $10/gallon according to multiple studies out there. A massive globe-spanning military-industrial complex that assures the oil industry can steal nations' resources and pollute with impunity also can't continue forever. Nor can the environment sustain any of it for much longer, not just the massive extraction, consumption, associated emissions, and overall trend toward global ecocide and biosphere collapse, but also the wars. It's an interesting waiting game to see what order everything will fail in. I suspect in the longer term Russia will be better off than most of the world, with the exception of the scenario where the nukes start flying.

 

[goatman]

i suppose the pain russia will feel from war won't be in oil prices or not as the war effort happens if they/putin can help it.

A dictator can artificially suppress gasoline prices, right up until he can't.

that is funny as frock coming from an American Democrat

 

[e-beach]

i suppose the pain russia will feel from war won't be in oil prices or not as the war effort happens if they/putin can help it.

A dictator can artificially suppress gasoline prices, right up until he can't.

that is funny as frock coming from an American Democrat

Ian Hill is an American democrat?....... really?......

 

[Hillhater]

The U.S. corporate dictatorship has been doing it for decades. Oil and oil-derived fuels are subsidized orders of magnitude more than any renewable energy is. The entire world has been artificially suppressing the price of gasoline, for that matter, by ignoring externalities associated with its production, storage, transportation, and use. Were externalities accounted for, gasoline would be well over $10/gallon according to multiple studies out there…..

Unless you can produce some convincing cost data to back up that statement from “multiple sources”…. I call Bull 5hit on that !
Where do youthink all the multi Trillions of petro dollars stashed away by oil companies comes from ?
.. Who do you believe could provide a subsidy of $5-$8 per gallon for every gallon sold ?
..why would a product based on free base material , refined in massive quantities, have a “value” of $10+ ?

You need to rethink your predudices !, and get a sence of perspective
Without the energy provided from oil and coal,.. you , I, your velomobile,.. and the entire civilised society we enjoy,..would not exist ,!

 

[The Toecutter]

Unless you can produce some convincing cost data to back up that statement from “multiple sources”…. I call Bull 5hit on that !
Where do youthink all the multi Trillions of petro dollars stashed away by oil companies comes from ?
.. Who do you believe could provide a subsidy of $5-$8 per gallon for every gallon sold ?
..why would a product based on free base material , refined in massive quantities, have a “value” of $10+ ?

The natural world also provides a given value of resources, which is being degraded by the extraction of and consumption of fossil fuels. The pollution generated from burning those fossil fuels has consequences, which are not accounted for in the monetary price paid. Here are some studies that try to account for these variables when it comes specifically to gasoline:

https://www.physics.rutgers.edu/~ko...omalwar/honsem/2002/articles/realpricegas.pdf

THE EXTERNAL AND SOCIAL COST OF GASOLINE
Low estimate: $4.60/gallon or $558.7 billion/year
High estimate: $14.14/gallon or $1,690.1 billion/year
Estimate assuming oil price spike and new tax subsidies:
$14.37/gallon or $1,718.9 billion/year
THE REAL PRICE OF GASOLINE125
Low estimate: $5.60/gallon
High estimate: $15.14/gallon
W/price spike: $15.37/gallon

https://irena.org/-/media/Files/IRE...hash=803CA3E34600905E17E99586640BFC9FECD08AB7

https://www.rti.org/rti-press-publication/externalities-transportation-fuel/fulltext.pdf

There are many more.

Here's an article from the Union of Concerned Scientists explaining this:

https://www.ucsusa.org/resources/hidden-costs-fossil-fuels

You need to rethink your predudices !, and get a sence of perspective
Without the energy provided from oil and coal,.. you , I, your velomobile,.. and the entire civilised society we enjoy,..would not exist ,!

The entirety of "civilised society" is living on borrowed time. There is no silver bullet alternative to oil, which is why squandering it is such a terrible idea. There are a large number of partial replacements that could take over for most of the specific purposes that we use oil for, but they have not yet been implemented, mostly due to political reasons, and can't be switched to overnight. The irony is that oil will be needed to implement them, and if it is used up or becomes inaccessible before doing such, humanity will inevitably see another dark age following a massive population reduction as fossil fuel availability declines and its ability to sustain its technology is irrevocably lost. Without technology, humanity has greatly overshot the Earth's carrying capacity, and it is currently dependent upon non-renenewable energy to sustain the current carrying capacity which has been already overshot. If the biosphere of the planet itself is destroyed by excessive oil consumption, then we wouldn't be able to continue our existence either, even as an uncivilized species, especially given our current numbers.

That said, a necessary transition away from fossil fuel dependence should NOT be directed by the likes of the Bilderberg Group, IMF, and World Economic Forum, because their "solution" is to reduce most of humanity to the lifestyle of factory farm animals and micromanage their lives while they continue to consume the planet's resources like locusts. This would result in a WORSE outcome than total civilization collapse.

There needs to be an open discussion where the people of the world get to see an honest assessment of what is happening to their world and to decide what their future is, but that's not happening, especially with all of the rampant manipulation and censorship of social media and total corporate capture of all mass-scale publishing and the government classifying its crimes to prevent itself from being reformed or eliminated altogether, largely thanks to a selfish oligarchy that is afraid of losing power and control which has hijacked the environmental movement to its own ends. Greta Thunberg might be right, but she is also being used as a pawn. The likes of Klaus Schwab shouldn't be determining our collective future, but are doing so, without our input or permission.

This is not going to end well.

 

[Hillhater]

There is a huge difference between estimating a “social cost” or “external cost” of consequences,…and claiming a product is “subsidised”.
One is a theoretical figure derived to make a political/social point,…the latter is a direct $$ figure that can be directly verified.
In this case, both are fictional !
Of course oil is a valuable item for many uses, and every effort should be made to limit its use to those critical applications ( chemicals, pharmacuticals, plastics, etc) , but at the same time, suitable energy substitutes have to be allowed to replace it.
So, if electricity is to replace oil for trsnsportation, then practical,economical, increases in electricity production have to be actioned.
Currently, the oppososite is happening with cheap coal , nuclear, and gas power generation being rejected in favour of unreliable expensive, weather dependent generation that cannot provide a practical solution.

 

[Ianhill]

i suppose the pain russia will feel from war won't be in oil prices or not as the war effort happens if they/putin can help it.

A dictator can artificially suppress gasoline prices, right up until he can't.

that is funny as frock coming from an American Democrat

Thats funny lol, reality is russia citizens will feel pain for their leaders actions even if they agree to war not

I live in the wales my political stance has become like my religion, atheist.

Not because i don't want to be ruled by a collective group of people finely selected to know better, but i don't want to be ruled by dribbling monkeys in a cage pulling levers been poked by wealthy capitalists with sticks.

Sad truth is we all owe our state of economy globally to wealth churning algorithms thats plugged into the stock market courtesy of the likes of the villian group blackrock and alike. We live in a comic book at this point shits got so blatant.