Hall sensor and potentiometer

[Golden2000]

I have a wind scooter , the throttle with hall sensor give me very slow speed when i test it with potentiometer it’s work very good and full speed …. Where is the problem i am looking to use ebike throttle not potentiometer

 

[glennb]

Problem will be output voltage from throttle. Try a different throttle.

 

[slaphappygamer]

Wonder if the magnet in your defective throttle went out of adjustment. There is a spring in there. Use caution if you open it up.

 

[Golden2000]

Wonder if the magnet in your defective throttle went out of adjustment. There is a spring in there. Use caution if you open it up.

I test it with many types of throttle

 

[slaphappygamer]

I test it with many types of throttle

So, the condition persists when using a different hall sensor throttle?

 

[Golden2000]

So, the condition persists when using a different hall sensor throttle?

I have 2 type hall sensors throttle one with 2 separate magnet and the other with 1 magnet , what the difference between them ??

 

[glennb]

Interesting.

The single vs double magnets isn’t relevant to the problem you’re experiencing.

And not a programmable controller?

Either way, next step should be to measure voltages.

 

[Golden2000]

Interesting.

The single vs double magnets isn’t relevant to the problem you’re experiencing.

And not a programmable controller?

Either way, next step should be to measure voltages.

if you ask about controller output voltage,,, I measured it 4.8v

 

[glennb]

That’s good. You also need to measure the voltage on the throttle return signal wire, at full throttle.

You can disconnect the motor to do this, the wheel doesn’t need to be spinning.

 

[Golden2000]

Good
I measure it on release was 0.8v when i press full was 1.6v , i have a question about hall sensor i found 2 types of it 1-ugn3503 and 2-49e

 

[E-HP]

Good
I measure it on release was 0.8v when i press full was 1.6v

Full should be around 4.0V-4.3V. If there aren't limits being applied for the high voltage threshold, then the pot will output, and the controller would see, up to the full input voltage (~5v). If the controller's threshold is programmable, and set to something below 4V for full throttle, and the hall throttle was functioning properly, then both the pot and the hall throttle would function the same at full throttle.

 

[TommyCat]

i have a question about hall sensor i found 2 types of it 1-ugn3503 and 2-49e

Both are throttle type linear analog hall sensors with similar characteristics. The UGN input voltage requirement is 4.5 to 6vdc with 49E lower range at 2.7 to 6 vdc. Both within your input range. For more details see the references below…

References:

https://www.mouser.com/datasheet/2/...-ss39et-ss49e-ss59et-datasheet-00-1846303.pdf

UGN3503 SENSORS Datasheet pdf - HALL-EFFECT SENSORS. Equivalent, Catalog


The low full throttle signal output matches with the low motor power output.
Note, a throttle’s hall sensor will output 2.5 vdc with NO magnet present. Odd that you have at least 2 that do the same.
I‘d recommend testing with the signal not connected to the controller in case something in the controller is dragging the voltage down…
But you may have to open it up to check the internals, I.E. magnet positions.

For testing tips, opening up the throttle, and most everything you might want to know about hall/potentiometer throttles…
see this thread.

Guide to Hall Sensor Throttle operation, testing, and modification. - Electricbike.com Ebike Forum

Regards,
T.C.

 

[Golden2000]

Can you explain this point?

in case something in the controller is dragging the voltage down…

 

[E-HP]

Is the stock throttle the hall based one or the potentiometer? Is this a former rental scooter? Perhaps the potentiometer is overriding some restrictions that have been put into place when using the (stock) hall throttle.

 

[Golden2000]

Is the stock throttle the hall based one or the potentiometer? Is this a former rental scooter? Perhaps the potentiometer is overriding some restrictions that have been put into place when using the (stock) hall throttle.

My friend yes it’s rental (but after market) , i test it with output 5v and it work very good , but the voltage from control drop down from 4.8v without throttle to 2.6v when I connect the throttle , is there any way to add something resistor or capacitor or anything else to keep outputs voltage 4.8v

 

[E-HP]

My friend yes it’s rental (but after market) , i test it with output 5v and it work very good , but the voltage from control drop down from 4.8v without throttle to 2.6v when I connect the throttle , is there any way to add something resistor or capacitor or anything else to keep outputs voltage 4.8v

OK, so just making sure I understand. The red and black wires on the controller throttle connector measure 4.8V when not connected to the throttle, but when connected, the voltage between the red and black drops to 2.6V, is that correct? And because the input voltage is dropping to 2.6V, so does the throttle output/signal wire voltage at full throttle. Please confirm whether these are the facts. Thanks.

 

[Golden2000]

All you say correct
The scooter didn’t drive at full speed , because the output voltage drop down to 2.6v not keep on 4.8v

 

[TommyCat]

Please note that with a hall sensor throttle, full output will always be about .6 to .7 vdc lower than the input voltage.
So expect about 4.2 vdc output with full throttle when working properly.

So what in the throttle is dragging down the input voltage? Does it still drop with the signal wire left disconnected?
Have you verified the wiring? See throttle thread for hall sensor pin out, and how to verify controller wires. Don’t depend on wire colors!
Have you bench tested it using a different power source such as a usb wall wort or cell phone back up battery? (5vdc sources)
Is the power current draw of the throttle less than 10 milliamperes when connected on the bench and then to the controller?

 

[Golden2000]

Please note that with a hall sensor throttle, full output will always be about .6 to .7 vdc lower than the input voltage.
So expect about 4.2 vdc output with full throttle when working properly.

So what in the throttle is dragging down the input voltage? Does it still drop with the signal wire left disconnected?
Have you verified the wiring? See throttle thread for hall sensor pin out, and how to verify controller wires. Don’t depend on wire colors!
Have you bench tested it using a different power source such as a usb wall wort or cell phone back up battery? (5vdc sources)
Is the power current draw of the throttle less than 10 milliamperes when connected on the bench and then to the controller?

From controller without throttle red and black 4.8v , when I connect throttle red and black wire voltage drop down to 2.6v , green wire .8v on release and 1.6 on full throttle

 

[TommyCat]

From controller without throttle red and black 4.8v , when I connect throttle red and black wire voltage drop down to 2.6v , green wire .8v on release and 1.6 on full throttle

Job well done on finding the issue of why you're not getting full power to the motor with your hall sensored throttles. I think that we are all on the same page in this regard.
The task now is to hunt down the CAUSE of the issue.

Sorry for the short posts. I would like now to put a bit of reasoning behind my questions...

Can you explain this point?

My thoughts...

Problem.
A 5vdc power supply voltage drop that occurs only with hall sensored throttles.

is there any way to add something resistor or capacitor or anything else to keep outputs voltage 4.8v

We will keep workarounds in mind, but for now let's concentrate on determining the cause.


A voltage drop can occur with resistance, a short, or insufficient voltage supply for the load. The problem could be in the throttle, controller, and/or associated wiring.
My first goal would be to try and determine if the problem is specific to the throttle, or the controller.
Since the controller's voltage looks good before attaching the hall sensored throttle and works well with a potentiometer. I start my focus on the throttle. (but keep the controller in mind for other reasons mentioned below...)
Are you wiring up the hall sensor throttles differently than the pot? Leaving out some part of the harness?
Does the voltage drop with ONLY the RED and BLACK throttle wires connected. (GREEN wire left disconnected.)
This goes back to my original questions of...

I‘d recommend testing with the signal not connected to the controller in case something in the controller is dragging the voltage down…

and

Does it still drop with the signal wire left disconnected?

So, if it is dropping voltage with just the power and ground wire connected... why? Which leads to...

Have you verified the wiring?

Not to cause offence, just checking.

So, what's different between a hall sensored throttle, and a potentiometer type. In this instance the fact that a hall sensored throttle requires POWER to operate. Unlike the potentiometer which is a simple voltage divider using resistance.

Now this voltage requirement is very small. Less than 10 millivolts. Or about 10% of a typical controller's regulated 5vdc power output.

Which leads me to the importance of a bench test. This completely isolates the throttle from the controller and may determine where the fault is.
If the throttle works perfectly on the bench, using a separate power source... then the controller becomes suspect.

Is the power current draw of the throttle less than 10 milliamperes when connected on the bench and then to the controller?

The power being drawn by the throttle is very important here...
This could indicate a possible short or bad IC.
If it checks normal it could cast shade on the controller for this possible reason.
Purhaps your controller's 5vdc power supply is very close to the top of its output capabilities. Some people have actually tried to run lights off of it. Some have USB chargers. Along with the typical peripheral E-bike parts that use it such as PAS, motor's Hall sensors, and the controller's internal electronics. A defect amongst them (or wiring) might be consuming more power than normal.
Something easy you might want to try is to disconnect all the peripherals that are absolutely not needed to get the motor running.

I hope this helps you understand my 20 questions type of process of elimination trouble shooting. You answer my questions, and I'll answer yours.


Regards,
T.C.

 

[E-HP]

Purhaps your controller's 5vdc power supply is very close to the top of its output capabilities.

A test might be to place a resistor (50 ohm?) across the black and red controller wires to create ~100mA load and see if that's enough to replicate the behavior?

 

[TommyCat]

A test might be to place a resistor (50 ohm?) across the black and red controller wires to create ~100mA load and see if that's enough to replicate the behavior?

Adding an excessive load to the controller’s possibly already overloaded power supply to see if the voltage drops seems too risky to me… stressing a not easily replaced electronic board part.

 

[eee291]

Adding an excessive load to the controller’s possibly already overloaded power supply to see if the voltage drops seems too risky to me

I see no issue considering that it's already dropping by half with the throttle connected.
It would be interesting to see the throttle current draw when connected to a 5v source, like a USB port from a phone charger or similar.

 

[Golden2000]

I see no issue considering that it's already dropping by half with the throttle connected.
It would be interesting to see the throttle current draw when connected to a 5v source, like a USB port from a phone charger or similar.

From another 5v source , throttle work very good , the problem with the controller throttle 5v output

 

[eee291]

Do you have anything else connected to 5v other than hall sensors?
Unplug the hall sensors and try the hall based throttle and see if there is still a large voltage drop. (the motor won't run, but that's not important)
I'm guessing either a defect in the harness or a broken internal voltage regulator.