How practical is 72v (or 60v) for a street legal direct drive set-up meant for climbing and sub 28 mph speed?

[Balmorhea]

I think you will occasionally see "moral equivalent" used in a rather broad sense, where it's simply about a fundamental distinction that may matter to people. I don't care to take on the motorcycle vs. bicycle question here myself, but indeed it may matter to people.

That's what I meant. "To be given the same consideration as".

But there's no doubt whatsoever that bicycles are in fact morally superior to motorcycles (which are in turn morally superior to cars). Quiet, safe, considerate, and resource-efficient. The opposite of cars' gluttony, callous indifference, and hostility. Motorcycles are in between.

 

[MadRhino]

Not at all. Riding is riding, driving is another world. ‘Moral superiority’ of bicycles is a concept of self-righteousness that is a form of sectarism, or integrism when those fanatic believers want their moral rules enforced by law.

 

[donn]

OK, well, new page, original topic has gotten very old ...

It seems to me that one can dismiss the moral superiority of the bicycle only if one sees no problem with inefficient use of resources in transportation. To get there without some loss of moral standing, one would have to believe that there will never be any limit in the resources available to future generations, and that there's no cost to future generations in consuming all the resources we can now.

Where the electric bicycle fits in that is an interesting question, but it's sort of beside the point in a discussion with someone who subscribes to that eccentric view of the world.

 

[MadRhino]

The OP question had been answered long ago. We are in theory for quite a while.

Using the same reasoning as yours we can state that a man commuting 20 miles on a bicycle, does consume more resources than another one doing the same ride on an ebike, simply because the transformation of food into energy is the least efficient energy production means. If we would still use horses for transportation after the demographic growth of the last century, the amount of food consumed would be so high that 2/3 of the global population would be starving and most animal species would have disappeared already.

See, there is always a 2nd side to a coin.

Electricity is not the most ecologic energy in countries that are producing it with combustibles, but sure is where it is coming form hydraulic turbines or other clean methods of production. Batteries could be cleaner, vut this is coming soon. The best way to be cleaner in transportation, is to reduce transportation. Consume locally, work locally, and stop burning fuel for leisure or tourism.

 

[John in CR]

...The best way to be cleaner in transportation, is to reduce transportation. Consume locally, work locally, and stop burning fuel for leisure or tourism.

Or a virus as contagious as Covid 19 with a mortality rate of 90-95%, starting with those who think they need to make the rules for everyone else whether it's what is politically correct speech or what electric bikes should be allowed on the road with minimal registration hassle or none at all.

 

[donn]

Using the same reasoning as yours we can state that a man commuting 20 miles on a bicycle, does consume more resources than another one doing the same ride on an ebike, simply because the transformation of food into energy is the least efficient energy production means. If we would still use horses for transportation after the demographic growth of the last century, the amount of food consumed would be so high that 2/3 of the global population would be starving and most animal species would have disappeared already.

See, there is always a 2nd side to a coin.

You're not going to buy much with that coin.

The horse issue is sort of interesting. Not interesting enough to look into the validity of your assertion, since no one proposed horses, but the principles can be looked at. Part of that equation, in favor of the horse, is that travel is simply discouraged by being less convenient, which applies also to the bicycle - so in practice, we don't simply multiply mass x distance x efficiency - the mass and distance factors are different. The horse and bicyclist both exist anyway, but the horses don't unless they're needed; the bicyclist exists and consumes his fuel regardless. So that's another non-equivalence. Then you have to consider the medical costs of lack of exercise, and the possibility that some may go out and exercise for no other purpose whatever.

 

[E-HP]

...The best way to be cleaner in transportation, is to reduce transportation. Consume locally, work locally, and stop burning fuel for leisure or tourism.

Or a virus as contagious as Covid 19 with a mortality rate of 90-95%, starting with those who think they need to make the rules for everyone else whether it's what is politically correct speech or what electric bikes should be allowed on the road with minimal registration hassle or none at all.

I could support legislation for a new type of Cap and Trade, but focused on laws instead. Require a 30% reduction in laws by 2030, so all the obsolete old crappy ones that don't do anything are eliminated from the books. Then "cap" the total number of laws, so you only make a new law, if you get rid of the next worst crappy law (the "trade" part). In theory, any new law should be better than the next worst law, so over time......
I think it will take a while before e-bike laws really become a priority, and current ones might be eliminated during the first sweep. :thumb: 10kW without any worries. :wink: Some things just need to be left to natural selection.

 

[Balmorhea]

Using the same reasoning as yours we can state that a man commuting 20 miles on a bicycle, does consume more resources than another one doing the same ride on an ebike, simply because the transformation of food into energy is the least efficient energy production means.

Advanced medical care, and long-term assisted living, are also very resource-intensive. That's what you opt into when you use motor power instead of muscle power. Best bargain is to use both.

 

[John in CR]

...the bicyclist exists and consumes his fuel regardless.

A fallacy that defies the laws of physics unless the energy expended for transportation also replaces exercise that would be done if not cycling.

 

[donn]

A fallacy that defies the laws of physics unless the energy expended for transportation also replaces exercise that would be done if not cycling.

I tried to look it up, but all I could find was energy expenditure for cycling clearly written for someone who want to maximize it - and in the better sources, you'll see a discussion of how to increase your basal metabolism, so you'll consume more energy even when not cycling. Not many of us are among starving people in the 3rd world, and our energy is surplus.

 

[goatman]

is that why americans are so fat?

 

[E-HP]

is that why americans are so fat?

Hey, hey, I used to resemble that remark :lol: , but I'm 30 lbs lighter than my pre-ebike weight.

 

[goatman]

me too, started at 205, back in fighting shape at 175 :thumb: and i dont even peddle :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[E-HP]

me too, started at 205, back in fighting shape at 175 :thumb: and i dont even peddle :lol: :lol: :lol:

My exact same numbers. Parallel e-universe?

The way I see it, it's sort of like burning calories. Even walking over to charge my bike, then riding it around for a few hours, is better than sitting on the couch eating chips for a few hours.

 

[Balmorhea]

...the bicyclist exists and consumes his fuel regardless.

A fallacy that defies the laws of physics unless the energy expended for transportation also replaces exercise that would be done if not cycling.

Fit active bodies are more efficient than motorist bodies. Their food requirements are not in proportion to their physical activity. They are higher, though.

 

[MadRhino]

I have been riding all my life, horses and motorcycles mostly. I am now 72, still have the abs and run the stairs. I don’t need to pedal a bicycle in the city trafic to keep fit, and I don’t believe that I would be in better condition if I would have. In fact, most of the bicycle fanatics that I have known in my life are worn out already.

 

[donn]

Yeah, I sure don't mean to claim that we all need exercise cycling, per se, and certainly not at the performance-oriented levels that the lycra crowd gets into. It may be more about that basal metabolism, vs. the truly sedentary lifestyle. I'd like to say it's just walking when you can, bicycling if you can, and generally getting a little physical activity as part of doing what you need to do ... but I've been skinny all my life, so I can't really model my own advice very convincingly. Whatever it is we need, there's a huge percentage of the population that isn't getting it. Maybe the electric bicycle is just the ticket - like the 250W rental bikes that litter the sidewalks around here.

 

[Ianhill]

The speed rating could be meet with a middrive bosch ebike and run it with a vesc, it's towing capacity will still be high in short gears and the luxury of a full cassette to pedal along at the 30mph mark, bonus is you can get upto a 29er and use lightweight parts for some thing that breeze past police.

 

[John in CR]

A fallacy that defies the laws of physics unless the energy expended for transportation also replaces exercise that would be done if not cycling.

I tried to look it up, but all I could find was energy expenditure for cycling clearly written for someone who want to maximize it - and in the better sources, you'll see a discussion of how to increase your basal metabolism, so you'll consume more energy even when not cycling. Not many of us are among starving people in the 3rd world, and our energy is surplus.

That would be a strike against pedaling, not an argument for broad use of pedal bikes over ebikes.

 

[donn]

A fallacy that defies the laws of physics unless the energy expended for transportation also replaces exercise that would be done if not cycling.

I tried to look it up, but all I could find was energy expenditure for cycling clearly written for someone who want to maximize it - and in the better sources, you'll see a discussion of how to increase your basal metabolism, so you'll consume more energy even when not cycling. Not many of us are among starving people in the 3rd world, and our energy is surplus.

That would be a strike against pedaling, not an argument for broad use of pedal bikes over ebikes.

?? It isn't a strike against anything, and it isn't any argument for what kind of bicycle people should use.

It's just an indication that the energy expended for transportation is surplus.

 

[dogman dan]

To each his own man, long as you are not getting fatter. Over the last ten years, I went through quite a progression. As my health changed what I rode and why changed. I started out not so fat, and commuting by ebike to work leaned me out some more.

Once I got near death sick ten years ago, I did get fat. But also during that time e bikes saved my life. I was too sick to walk around the block, but I could still hang onto an e bike and ride a couple miles. I was 53 and felt 83. It kept me from going suicidal, but I was sitting there waiting to die. I went through the entire ready to die progression. As I got better instead, I worked from home for E bikekit, and kept e biking to keep my head screwed on straight.

Now I'm almost back to normal, 62 and feel about 70. Still have to keep my energy expenditure moderate, no running, no sprinting. Still working on that fat I put on, but I have to be careful. Now I tend to ride motorcycles, or go for short pedal bike rides daily.

But the point here is RIDE! Who cares what? JUST RIDE! Right what suits you, what you can afford, what you enjoy.

Screw fashions, morality, etc. I NEVER rode an e bike for moral or ecological reasons, and never will care about that stuff. I rode for fun, because my body liked it, etc.

 

[ZeroEm]

I would be mostly bed ridden and not get any exercise if it was not for E-bikes. Just hanging on and being out there is more exercise than laying in bed. The more I ride the more i'm able to and better I feel.

 

[Ianhill]

I had 4 impacted wisdom teeth 2 years of decay waiting for an op because they were wrapped around my tongue nerves.
I had out of body experiecnces days of total dark and rest with migranes that bring the best down.

Inbetween all that my ebike helped me up the mountain when the pain was low my fitness was crap from infection the heart don't like working hard then so I'd say I could have used a pedal bike but id of been stuck local where as the ebike give me a 10 mile mountain range and i needed that piece and quiet.

 

[dogman dan]

My experience was much like Zero Em's. I got what exercise I could on the e bike, when a real big workout was sitting in a chair with no arms for 15 min. Handlebars helped, I could sit the bike longer than a chair. I began to build bikes that could ride longer and longer, as I got better.

But ten years later, I must confess to preferring a 5 hour ride on my big touring bmw, with at least three hours of it on twisty mountain roads. E bike battery, done in an hour, or two at most. I used to spend a lot on extra batteries, but now I buy tires for the bmw instead. FWIW, on a twisty road, that motorcycle is a real workout. My core strength better than ever.

 

[donn]

FWIW, on a twisty road, that motorcycle is a real workout. My core strength better than ever.

One of the reasons I got rid of my Moto Guzzi - too heavy to be any fun until you really get going. I used to be able to right it when it fell over, albeit not easily, but the last couple times it seemed to be beyond my ability. And then there's the noise, getting swaddled up in armor from head to toe, and I don't really get such a thrill out of high speed travel, etc. ... it was fun, but the electric Limbo is more fun. I don't recall having real need to sweat over the various configuration options - just got a direct drive kit from a reputable source and a battery from ebay, stuffed it into the bike, and enjoy. I guess it was obvious enough to me that with a 26" wheel, I'd want the "slower" wind motor because the hub would be rotating slower for the same output; I think I may have been looking for a 48V battery but ended up with 52V practically by accident.