Hubmonster teardown

[Ianhill]

Most Powerful 10inch QS Hub MOTOR 7000W 70H V4 Type For ...

No i meant the 10 inch its got a 212 size stator 230mm dropout google it its on aliexpress.

Theres some decent 10 inch tyres from pmt soft compounds slicks and wets etc, but id stick to cheapies and blow them to bits very cheap tyres available in 10 inch.

And good find larsb i only found the 15kw in orders of 10 too

 

[ridethelightning]

I might be delusional but this is why I spent so long looking for a hubmonster-

The hubmoster family is reported to have been manufactured in
Japan, materials etc, but assembled in China.

the critical things in these motors I think are the quality of magnets, steel in lams, perhaps copper purity, possibly the design.

In many of the bikes that had hubmoster(familly) as stock motor, efun evd, zap, xtreme, some others identical but rebranded to sell in Aus, the newer models after a certain year, all seemed to swap from the 6phase hubmonsters over to the big fat qs style 3 phase.

i claim to know cause i looked at hundreds of them when searching for hubmonsters on craigslist and gumtree for a couple of months till I finally got lucky. i learned to quickly spot the new models and motors and move on.

I came up with 2 explanations for the change over. one is that the cost of the six phase system and or high quality components was not as economical as a larger heavier, less efficient 3 phase to do the same job.(remember these hubmonster motors were never used to their full potential on the bikes they were fitted to, would only ever see max 7kw,often 4kw only depending on model) and they realised they were expensive and redundant. Id say the batteries weren't too flash back then either.

the other is that the company that made the hubmonsters closed down or stopped making them(this is reported to have happened), and have the patent, so the bike companies were forced elsewhere. The Chinese are forced to respect Chinese patents.

 

[Ianhill]

Chinnese and patent forcing theres words thats clash lol.

They share intellectual property alot more the world of sue thy neighbour is more of a western thing, specially among small business of shenzein markets and its developed stronger as a result they can make a prototype that takes us weeks in days they have technology months in advance of us.

Usa once was manufacturer capital of the world, now it all clings on to is its advancments but day by day china is catching and more advanced than them in many ways.

Media best the drum and everyone thinks they scum its because they pose such a economic threat they own alot of countrys debt have the lsrgedt manufacturing of the world and making the biggest push towards sustainable future their dependence on the west is less and less so America threats to go to war over taiwan when really they are double dipping since an 1980s treaty that says the do recognise mainland china as china not taiwan as it used to be.

Theres 2 factions at war in china i csnt remember the names but this been going in for a long time taiwan in modern same sex marrige etc china not so much lol most taiwan don't refer to as chinnese.

Bit like the welsh and english, you can call me british but dont refer to me as English because im welsh onky difference is china has a power hungry edge and wants taiwan for itself while the English is too weak they wouldn't dare unless they want some civil war.

 

[fubgumfaw]

Most Powerful 10inch QS Hub MOTOR 7000W 70H V4 Type For ...

No i meant the 10 inch its got a 212 size stator 230mm dropout google it its on aliexpress.

Theres some decent 10 inch tyres from pmt soft compounds slicks and wets etc, but id stick to cheapies and blow them to bits very cheap tyres available in 10 inch.

And good find larsb i only found the 15kw in orders of 10 too

I found it...

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005002164847750.html?spm=a2g0o.detail.1000013.15.41276902OcOvAm&gps-id=pcDetailBottomMoreThisSeller&scm=1007.13339.169870.0&scm_id=1007.13339.169870.0&scm-url=1007.13339.169870.0&pvid=afd980e8-212a-4285-b401-fb0650e89ef7&_t=gps-idcDetailBottomMoreThisSeller,scm-url:1007.13339.169870.0,pvid:afd980e8-212a-4285-b401-fb0650e89ef7,tpp_buckets:668%230%23131923%2347_668%230%23131923%2347_668%23888%233325%2313_668%23888%233325%2313_668%232846%238110%231995_668%235811%2327184%2361_668%232717%237563%23598_668%231000022185%231000066059%230_668%233468%2315618%23999_668%232846%238110%231995_668%235811%2327184%2361_668%232717%237563%23598_668%233164%239976%23627_668%233468%2315618%23999

I found a chart for another QS motor where they mention that H70 under a column labeled "Magnet". It also listed H40, H50, H60. Any idea what that means? N52 is about all the better Neo magnets get so H50 sort of matches with N50, but no idea what H60 or H70 means???

 

[larsb]

It’s magnet height. 50H=50mm

 

[fubgumfaw]

The hubmoster family is reported to have been manufactured in
Japan, materials etc, but assembled in China.

the other is that the company that made the hubmonsters closed down or stopped making them(this is reported to have happened), and have the patent, so the bike companies were forced elsewhere. The Chinese are forced to respect Chinese patents.

Did you ever find who made these motors? No one co-opts a name for anyone elses product without a licensing and contractual agreement from the manufacturer. This is basic branding copy writing. Why are these motors not referred to by the manufacturer and model number? John in CR didn't make these motors and yet here we are using "hubmonster" which is NOT their official model numbers or Manufacturer name.

John...I'm not attacking you, just questioning the logic of the name. A QS205 is a specific series of motors made by QS Motor. No one calls them "JoeBob10.2" or whatever. If you know who made these motors and the model number, please say so! We should be using the official name of the motor.

On the subject of "hubmonster", it is a cool name, just not what the manufacturer called the motor. I wonder if YMMOTOR made them.

 

[fubgumfaw]

It’s magnet height. 50H=50mm

Interesting...wonder what the magnet strength is, but hey at least they are taller. I guess width is the same in the entire product line. So in the QS205m, you might have 40mm or 70mm tall magnets and the width is always 30mm...or whatever.

 

[Ianhill]

205 is stator width i think

That 10 inch is a 212mm and then theres 12inch 260mm and the bigger 273mm

The width on the stator gets bigger with the larger power rating model's i dont know the width on them but the 230mm wide 10 inch use a m18 nut so the shaft is thick and its almost cubed shape with 212mm by 230mm dropout so it will be very rev happy and willing to pull a tyre off the rim no probs but will need field weakening to take advantage of it.

Theres 4 wind choices from 72v /50mph to 72v/81mph so depending on the needs theres something for everyone a racer that could clock 90mph with weakening or 60mph wheelie machine.

But the dropout width increases up the power range so thats got to be for the stator a 1000w 10inch has 135mm dropouts 95mm less.

Makes semce when making the motor to just have one lamination stamp and then multiple casing as the casting is cheaper than having multiple press stamps i suppose.

Bigger power use thin lams and more of them but the same press got to keepnthem to a decemt cost restraints some how using multiple bits as possible.

 

[fubgumfaw]

Usa once was manufacturer capital of the world, now it all clings on to is its advancments but day by day china is catching and more advanced than them in many ways.

Way off topic and so am I, but since you bring it up...

1. The USA has the best stealth tech on the planet. No one is even remotely close to the USA in this regard. China is way behind Russia and they are way behind the USA! While everyone else is still racing to get class 5 stealth, the USA is developing and implementing class 6 stealth! Class 5...done and done!
2. Threat detection and prevention...see number 1! The USA polices the world so that you get terrorist bombings a LOT LESS.
3. Number of air craft carriers and military fleet sizes. The USA by itself beats ALL OTHER combined forces and capabilities. IF it floats on or in the seas or flies, the USA owns the water and air in every way...if we want to.
4. Technological advancements in troops, communications and coordination of military forces. Everyone wishes they had what the US military has!
5. Help to the world. Good luck finding another country or multiple countries combined that gives away more food and aid to the world than the USA!!! Much of that is done by the US military.
6. Whose CPU's does the worlds computers run on? LOL...Intel, AMD, Invidia...American companies that place factories in your countries!

I could go on a while about how the USA is still the world leader and NOT as you claim, but that's more than enough. I'm sure someone will nitpic this list, but whatever...still true. Your lives are what they are thanks to what the USA gives to you freely! We make tons of mistakes and completely screw up and have agendas that are far from good at times! What happened in Iraq...100% the making of the USA and a flagrant abuse of power! Just abominable what the USA did in Iraq! I can say that thanks to the US Constitution!!! BEST country on the planet despite its many flaws AND we have a lot of flaws!!!

 

[larsb]

205 is stator width i think

It’s stator or airgap diameter. Their sizing is very clear, easy to compare motors.
Double the magnet height, twice the torque and twice as much motor
1.4x the airgap diameter, twice peak torque, twice the peak motor. A lot more continuous difference.

 

[fubgumfaw]

205 is stator width i think

That 10 inch is a 212mm and then theres 12inch 260mm and the bigger 273mm

The width on the stator gets bigger with the larger power rating model's i dont know the width on them but the 230mm wide 10 inch use a m18 nut so the shaft is thick and its almost cubed shape with 212mm by 230mm dropout so it will be very rev happy and willing to pull a tyre off the rim no probs but will need field weakening to take advantage of it.

Theres 4 wind choices from 72v /50mph to 72v/81mph so depending on the needs theres something for everyone a racer that could clock 90mph with weakening or 60mph wheelie machine.

But the dropout width increases up the power range so thats got to be for the stator a 1000w 10inch has 135mm dropouts 95mm less.

Makes semce when making the motor to just have one lamination stamp and then multiple casing as the casting is cheaper than having multiple press stamps i suppose.

Bigger power use thin lams and more of them but the same press got to keepnthem to a decemt cost restraints some how using multiple bits as possible.

QS numbering: I have wondered about this too and have yet to figure it out. QS205 or 205mm is 8.07 inches. Maybe that's the diameter of the stator like you said? LOL...no idea! It has nothing to do with the rim or spoke diameters that much is for sure.

Winds: Did you see that this motor is offered in 3.5 turns? I was wondering how you do half a turn on a stator tooth? I guess I understand how. I've never seen anyone offer that as an option as usually full turns are what is done.

Lam thickness: Why would they use anything other than .3mm for all the motors they make? Maybe the insulating coating has gotten better/thinner? I thought that .3mm lam thickness was the thinnest practical thickness due to the amount of iron going down if you go thinner and the amount of insulation off setting things negatively.

 

[Ianhill]

That's all assumptions on my end with the manufacturing ive not compared them but its logical to make things simple as possible in manufacturing so it saves time no mixed up parts and reject numbers go down when that one process is finessed then sped up.

 

[fubgumfaw]

That's all assumptions on my end with the manufacturing ive not compared them but its logical to make things simple as possible in manufacturing so it saves time no mixed up parts and reject numbers go down when that one process is finessed then sped up.

I wouldn't know either. I've had a QS205v3 open before, but that's all. A data set of 1 does not give me enough to draw any conclusions about how QS does anything else.

BTW...thanks for pointing out that 7kw 10" QS hub. Now you've got me drooling over the QS260 12" version!
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005001452052490.html?spm=a2g0o.cart.0.0.19e63c00DuMW0w&mp=1

I don't really need it for anything and I have several "hubmonsters" that will obviously be better. I'm always curious and that's good enough reason to buy something for me.

I found the single motor purchase option for the 15kw YMMOTOR...I'll probably buy one of these before I buy a QS260. I guess I missed the "Buy Samples" link previously. It will cost me $1200 to get one including shipping. Ouchy ouch ouch!

 

[fubgumfaw]

That axle looks too small to me. HubMonsters are built with 25mm axles with much larger flats cut at 15mm+ spacing.

It looks to me like those hubs are ventilated with 2 slots under each of those red pieces that act like blades. We need to see what the other side looks like. Base on my results with ventilated strategies, those exhaust vents and blades won't be very effective. Blades should be at and/or beyond the perimeter, and should have a much steeper angle to the blades, which would greatly increase flow. Since the blades on that motor bolt on, it would be simple to DIY better blades and at least double the fresh air flow.

No info on the axel size...hard to say much about it and I don't trust my ability to guess from pictures where the axel has red heat shrink on it.

The red scoops are screwed on and they face the right direction for cooling in the forward direction for motor spin. They are on just the one side of the motor it looks. There's a picture of the motor from the rim and I see no red scoops sticking out on the right side. I bet they are on the left side only. Maybe there are vent holes on the right side and no scoops? My motor lacks scoops at all and I'm seeing peaks of 309 amps in the phases and 200 phase amps is super common without it getting too warm. Maybe the scoops on the one side offset the need for venting on both sides like I did? There has to be exit holes on the right side or else the motor heats and cools unevenly. I sure hope there is air flow on the right side...something like I did. My venting works really well!

https://imgur.com/Aaa6pJy
https://imgur.com/buWMudV

You've seen mine...show us yours. I want to see how you vented one of these motors.

BTW...I have a couple of 150v FOC controllers coming soon. They will see evaluation on my Zap scooter at 82v. I'm getting them so I can do a 32S EV build. I like what ElectricGod said about making one of the hubmonsters into an outrunner. I can machine parts and turning a hub motor into an outrunner should be within my skill set. I think he said he would rewind it for a higher Kv too. That sounds like a good idea. I'm going to start exploring how to do this to my 55mm motor. It has a cast aluminum bell/rim on it so that will machine off easily. I can then use the reworked motor at 32S for the next build as a mid-drive. I think this would be a unique build. No one else is likely to rework a motor this much.

A bit of eRPM calculations. John, you have lots more knowledge about these motors than I do. Tell me what you think if this will be a problem.
16kv x 131v x 10p = 20,960 eRPM
60kv x 131v x 10p = 78,600 eRPM
80kv x 131v x 10p = 104,800 eRPM

Nucular does 90,000 eRPM and VESC does 100,000 if I remember right. I think as far as controllers go 60kv ought to do well and adding FW to that won't exceed any eRPM limits. I'm more concerned about motor losses at higher eRPMs. What do you think?

Do you know the turn counts for these motors at 16kv? How about for any other Kv?

 

[fubgumfaw]

A little digging around to find who made these motors...
My 55mm motor has "www.erider.on" cast into the side plate. I see no other marking on it to indicate model number or manufacturer. I did a whois search for this domain and it's not a valid domain name...no surprise there since we know the company went out of business. However www.erider.com is alive and well and takes me to a Chinese EV parts maker. Could this be the same company? I'll reach out to these people and ask. I think naming these motors by who they are made by and the model number is a good thing.

 

[ridethelightning]

correct. qs 205 50H v3 means 205mm stator DIA, 50mm magnet width(height) not sure why they say height...v3 means it has the max copper fill.

 

[ridethelightning]

john in cr is the one who called the motors hubmonsters, he reported having a "dealership" or at least importing them by pallet from the only factory that made them. afaik, hes the only one who knows where/who they are on es, but one could dig around to find it by contacting rmartin or erider and ask where they got their old motors from. i contacted an alibaba site to order motors that looked like them in pics, but i was not convinced it was the hubmonsters they had, maybe just old photos.

 

[fubgumfaw]

correct. qs 205 50H v3 means 205mm stator DIA, 50mm magnet width(height) not sure why they say height...v3 means it has the max copper fill.

OK...what does V4 add then? Maybe the magnets are H60 or 60mm long instead of 50mm?
This is all a good education in QS terminologies.

 

[fubgumfaw]

john in cr is the one who called the motors hubmonsters, he reported having a "dealership" or at least importing them by pallet from the only factory that made them. afaik, hes the only one who knows where/who they are on es, but one could dig around to find it by contacting rmartin or erider and ask where they got their old motors from. i contacted an alibaba site to order motors that looked like them in pics, but i was not convinced it was the hubmonsters they had, maybe just old photos.

I saw his thread from a good while ago. However ElectricGod did this thread much more recently and I saw it like a year ago or more. Last I saw it, he had lots of images of the motor internals...so when I got into my build a good ways, I came to this thread to post my results.

I forget now where I saw it that John had bought up the last of the inventory from the factory. So yeah...I'd like him to weigh in here.

You found a motor that looks like a "hubmonster"? Please post the URL...I'd like to take a peak too.

It's the official name not super important really, but the name/manufacturer/model number is what it is and may lead to other great motors they have made.

 

[Ianhill]

Got a bld72701 controller and water cooling block direct from manufacturer £223 delivered no import charges.

300batt amps 700phase amps, vector foc ,300% overspeed, bluetooth not sure on the erpm limit but they state 150kmh for some reason so they must have a motor configuration in mind but im no mind reader so ill have to use my touchy feely mistical powers to get that figure into erpm.

For that price ill take a punt on 22s it will be pushing 24kw peaks upto 27 with a strong enough pack so i took the less than £10 a kw gamble see what turns up next few weeks now.

If its any decent it will be powering that 10 inch i want time to start putting pennys in a jar.

 

[larsb]

That’s daring :wink:
Will you get an english program?

 

[Ianhill]

That’s daring :wink:
Will you get an english program?

Yeah ive had a quick look on youtube and the Bluetooth app is chinglish so theres some guess work but theres pretty pictures too so wint be too hard same as the bms apps so i jumped at it.

 

[Ianhill]

If i spin a motor too fast and literally blow it to bits it will kill the controller same time wont it ?

I only ask as i got a dualtron hub and id like to give it hell ive got a few controllers i dont mind blowing but nothing will take it to self destruct territory only phase melting hurt bombs id like to slo motion it peel apart while i keep my distance ill have to do it rural because i can't have the neighbours roof with a big hole in it etc i could try say it looks like avaition to me must of fell out of a plane lmao.

 

[john61ct]

The precise failure point will be different between the motor and controller.

In theory you could wreck lots of small motors with a robust enough controller designed for big ones

 

[Ianhill]

Tempting me in john be nice to hear it whoop boom and see it peal open 1000fps best i can do need the slo mo guys capture it.