Hubmonster teardown

[larsb]

Just double wires to get more area then?

 

[larsb]

If you wonder why fubgumfaw/electricgod is so quiet these days it’s because he is currently blocked due to sending stuff like this:

It’s only for a week according to the moderators so he’ll eventually be back.

Since this is not the first time i’ve gotten these kinds of ramblings from EG i’m wondering why they allow him back at all.

 

[Ianhill]

Ffs grow up he needs now, ive had enough pain in my life past year to go right off the rails take it out on society and put people in boxes but what that get me life in a box myself id rather swallow my pain snd keeo been nice as i can because ive got pride and respect fsr from perfect i have a temper but i will always try apologise if needed.

Life can deal us all bum hands my past year as seen death if a baby and that happened 2 years before aswell xmas was not xmas for me it was hell but im still here what keeps me going is my hobby and thirst to learn and take others on the of life journey too.

Mental heslth and depression at the moment is through the roof and uk has a way of ignoring it then if the sysyem accept you need help it does it completely wrong with tablets to supress rsther than openly deal with a demon and desteoy it.

The bully in school remains in your head till you put the nut in them i learnt that one young age you dont have to win but just defend thats enough of a deterrent same for Mental health just facing up to it makes a diffence you will feel like shit for a period of time but acknowledgement allows the fight to occur within yourself tablets are no answer self mind control stimulate your moods by taking part in certain activitys if your moods swing walk away leave whats annoying you come back fresh head clear mind and do a better job.

Electric god take notice becuase you will end up in a place that you dont recognise yourself that little child will wake up one morning and think i don't know who i am or the things i stand for.

 

[neptronix]

Just an FYI, it's against our forum rules to post private PMs without consent... even when it comes to a user who is being a pain in the ass. I'm going to give you a one time exception here but just know it's not in good form in the future.

I want to make sure us moderators are taking care to prevent the sort of harassment you received. I don't want you to feel the need to defend yourself against shit like this, it's our job as keepers of the peace here to do that.

Do let me know if the character returns and send abusive PMs directly to a member of the moderator team ( instead of the forum ) if you get more.

 

[larsb]

Right, understood.
EG has had the habit of posting "you're attacking" etc in his posts, meanwhile sending nasty PMs so I thought about it before i posted but decided it could fill in the missing pieces, what's being said and done in the background.

 

[Ianhill]

Nevertheless those apt controllers been used in them scooters are quite a tasty bit of kit for the price.

Nd 961800 is bit of a monster 118v max and 800amp from my math thats a 80kw controller so why they say 38kw beats me it will peak at 100kw with a strong 28s pack not sure what motor would be happy with that voltage and amps its beyond any hub motor and car motors like nissan leaf etc are 350v + so what could eat 80kw at 28s.

 

[larsb]

I’m pretty sure it can be calculated by a controller guy but i think it’s because controller never outputs full volts (unless driven at noload) and full current at the same time.

At higher rpms the combination of increasing bemf lowers effective drive voltage and higher commutation frequency (shorter ”ON” time) and coil inductance limits the possibility to get current through the windings.

 

[Ianhill]

The input volts and amps under load is the consumed power of the controller so they must rate 38kw as the capable continual heat shed after that point thermal runaway can occur with the powerstage ?

Yea theres all sorts of clever math to work out what controllers do over my head but theres no getting away from what goes in must come out with the losses from the powerstage so more lower quality fets more heat loss etc better design higher efficiency.

Like you said a motor will only turn so much energy into power until it saturates with heat and not many want to burn thousands of pounds finding the exact limit. But 96v 800amp ive not seen anything that could not burn to the ground under the weight of that power at low volts as that thats entering igbt territory.

 

[neptronix]

Right, understood.
EG has had the habit of posting "you're attacking" etc in his posts, meanwhile sending nasty PMs so I thought about it before i posted but decided it could fill in the missing pieces, what's being said and done in the background.

I get your reasoning, thanks for understanding.
EG was a big prob for the moderation team in general.
Hope your experience here is a lot more peaceful from here on!

 

[Ianhill]

Qs motor 12 inch 8000w new generation.
Lucky i found this already made inquiry into the 10inch but not pulled the trigger damn lucky as this is the one that really ticks the boxes and comes in at a decent price im all over it.

 

[TorgueRPM]

If they would just do something better for torque management, those motors would be so much more appealing. At the power levels these can take those axles just don't seem like enough. Something like an Enertrac torque arm would be awesome.

 

[Ianhill]

If they would just do something better for torque management, those motors would be so much more appealing. At the power levels these can take those axles just don't seem like enough. Something like an Enertrac torque arm would be awesome.

Looking at the specs its got a m22 nut and double flat of 18mm on the shaft by 1.5cm so the area of the torque arm inner load face can be upto 18mm×15mm top and bottom, the loading on that face will never be equal even from new it will load the corners of that area but nice chrome heavy stainless waterjet out shouldn't have any issues holding that lump in place id of thought, Thats like 30mm×36mm in area with both arms and both faces that wheel aint going anywhere soon.

The stock torque arms are good for nothing but the bin in my eyes ok for doing burn outs not much load when tyre breaks traction but few heavy hill climbs and they will feel pain im the end.

Never seen the enertrac hubs till you mentioned them the bolting pattern im not sure if it is any better its only in one side and is 6 m8 or there abouts as good as 2 hefty torque arms maybe one thing it is lighter for sure ill have a dig about on they site when i got time.

 

[fubgumfaw]

awesome wheel build! Where did you get the wheels please?

i have done something similar with cast 5 spoke 12"wheels, but i had to make a stainless ring adapter to get it to match up with the existing holes in the motor flange.

i did see the little cast 12" wheels with holes in them, but i couldnt find them in the right size at the time.

I got banned because of LARSB...what did I do? Oh that's right...get trolled! Good job mods! Ban the victim and NOT the troll!

I got the wheels from 222 Store. At the time they had another 12" cast wheel that was similar and I asked them if they could get the ones I have in 12" and they could for the same price. Looking at their store now, I don't see either rim.
https://js22.aliexpress.com/store/4241044?spm=a2g0o.store_pc_groupList.pcShopHead_3190841.0

 

[fubgumfaw]

My motor...It's seeing 309 phase amp peaks at 82v that's 50kw now.

That is not correct and this appeared to have been successfully clarified by a number of members over the last page or two.

-When phase amps are at their peak, the motor rpm and voltage are going to be at a minimum. At this point your display for battery power consumption is going to reflect this fact and likely be reading closer to 5kw.

People can say "this is incorrect" or "you are wrong" until they are blue.
I reported the peak phase amps the controller reported.
I took pack voltage X the reported peak phase amps to get that 50kw...nothing more than that.
What you are saying is "incorrect" is what the controller reported. I simply posted that information here.
So to clarify...in case it got missed again...because people can't read for context!

THE CONTROLLERS BOTH REPORTED 309 PHASE AMPS PEAK!!!

 

[john61ct]

You can't control other people.

But you can (perhaps) exercise control over your reaction to their provocations.

It is exactly within that gap that true human Freedom lies.

 

[Addy]

I reported the peak phase amps the controller reported.
I took pack voltage X the reported peak phase amps to get that 50kw...nothing more than that.
What you are saying is "incorrect" is what the controller reported. I simply posted that information here.

What the controller reported is fine. You then did some incorrect math and came up with bogus numbers.
Not a big deal. Next time just use the correct method that has been explained several times:

Motor Power = Battery Voltage * Battery Current

This ignores losses in the controller, but they are usually pretty small compared to the power going to the motor.

 

[john61ct]

So to get motor power kW from Phase amps, you need to know the motor voltage

can't multiply times battery voltage

is that correct?

 

[fubgumfaw]

I have dual 12F Nucs on 4 different bikes and the only issue I've ever had is that occasionally only one controller response when I jump on the throttle too aggressively from a dead stop, but returning the throttle to zero and twisting again makes it go every time. My pair of 24F's are waiting for the right project.

Regarding tire size, it sounds like you have MidMonsters, not HubMonsters. HubMonsters are slightly larger and come only with a 13" rim, though they may have made some with smaller for other companies. I'd love to get one with 12's as the smallest OD I've found in a 13 is 19.25", which is what I generally run. I have some with larger, including an EEB with a large 16" motor tire. That bike lacks real launch thrust, but the short wheelbase and high CG prevent what my lower longer scooters can do.

What Kv is the Nuc reporting on the motor(s) you have? What's the diameter of the bolt on cover?

Also note that the factory made a lot of versions of the same design using the same cast shells...different stator widths and different windings, so you can't know exactly what you have without measuring Kv and Phase-to-phase winding resistance.

I've been wanting to ask these questions for a while now, but that troll got me banned! GRRRR! NOT COOL!!! Everyone should stop him! This is stupid that he is allowed to make peoples lives miserable and inflict harm on others! He's an internet bully and troll!!!

I just learned a couple of minutes ago how to make pictures work on Endless-Sphere...editing this post!

A few questions if you don't mind answering...

1. Who made these motors? What were they called (model numbers)?

2. I have a weird problem that so far on 2 different pairings of 24F Nucular controllers has not gone away on my motor. I've also seen it on a friends outrunner with a single Nucular 24 fet on his bike. Turn up phase amps over "some level" and the motor makes this ratcheting or violent stuttering noise. I feel it in the scooter and the noise is quite loud. On my scooter with the 65mm 6 phase motor, I can get it to happen with the back wheel off the ground or while riding along. All I have to do is crank the throttle to WOT and the motor will stutter or ratchet violently. If I keep phase amps down or just turn them down in the controller settings, the problem stops or is greatly reduced. 2 very different motors with the exact same problem all on Nuc 24 fet controllers. This seems like a controller issue to me.

3. I have 2 of the 65mm tall stator or "hubmonsters". What's on my Zap scooter is a "hubmonster" (65mm tall stator). What is the diameter of the "hubmonster" stator? The controllers on the Zap report that it is 16kv...they report eRPM and then I derive the Kv from that.

4. The Zap scooters put them in 10" wheels and other scooters have them in "other sized" wheels. That ElectricGod dude people hate on posted a thread about his RMartin and said it had 12" wheels. This is where I saw that information. It has the exact same motor as I have. You claimed he had a "hubmonster". Mine was bolted into a steel 10" rim and his in a cast aluminum 12" rim. This is confusing! Did I read that right? You are recommending 13" wheels? This is easy enough to add. I can machine out the center of a cast rim and add the bolt pattern to it needed for the motor. I just did this for my Zap as can be seen here.

5. What do you measure for phase to phase on an official "hubmonster"? How about what you call "midmonster"? I have a 4 wire milliohm meter. All 3 of the motors I have, the phase wires came with colored heat shrink on them to delineate the 2 motors on the stator. For reference I'll refer to them like this: motor 1 is Yellow, Green, Blue and motor 2 is Red, White, Black.

Here's both my motors for the measurements below. Left is the "hubmonster", right is the "midmonster" (or what I think is one). It does have 6 phases and the stator is somewhat smaller than the left motor. The stator design is really similar to the "hubmonster".

These measurements are all done from tinned and otherwise bare wire ends.
My larger motor (I have 2 of them and one is on the Zap. I can't measure the phase resistances on it. This is the phases on the spare one.). Units are milliohms:
Motor1:
Y-G 46.4
Y-B 45.9
B-G 45.5
Motor 2:
R-B 47.6
R-W 47.0
B-W 47.5

What I interpret as a "midmonster". I have never run the motor and don't know the stator height or KV. millohm units:
Motor 1:
Y-G 105.1
Y-B 104.3
B-G 103.8
Motor 2: (I measured these twice! WTF?)
R-B 116.8
R-W 105.2
B-W 117.2

6. Have you done any torque arm work for your EV's? Can you post some pictures please? Here's my first set that worked OK and the latest ones I just machined over the weekend that clamp on the entire shaft flats.

 

[Ianhill]

So to get motor power kW from Phase amps, you need to know the motor voltage

can't multiply times battery voltage

is that correct?

Kv × battery volts give a theoretical top speed on traditional controllers but the vector foc controllers can exchange amps for volts in a way to extend rpm range at expense of more amps and more total power.

From what i understand the motor must have a torque reserve to get effective field weakening and not overheat the motor so a 48v system field weakeneing to get a 72v hub closer to its potential rpm fine.

48v motor on a 72v system allready pushed to its limit and then field weakening on top is going to push motor into saturation point get very hot and seal its fate.

 

[fubgumfaw]

You can't control other people.

But you can (perhaps) exercise control over your reaction to their provocations.

It is exactly within that gap that true human Freedom lies.

LARSB is in my foes list and has been since his first troll of me. I told him this in a PM and got banned for it. All I wanted was for him to stop and he's obviously vindictive, mean and a bully/troll. I'll probably get banned for posting the truth about him! But hey...LARSB needs to be STOPPED NOW!!! The moderators should punish the troll NOT his victims...that's unjust, stupid and offensive!!!

So this is me taking responsibility and expressing freedom! BAN THAT TROLL!!! What does he do other than nit pic other peoples posts and make false accusations?! Does he have any builds like ANYWHERE? Does he do anything other than be a know it all and troll you when he thinks you are wrong or thinks you are someone you are NOT?

YES I AM PISSED OFF!!! I GOT BANNED AND NOTHING WAS DONE TO THE TROLL!!!

 

[fubgumfaw]

So to get motor power kW from Phase amps, you need to know the motor voltage

can't multiply times battery voltage

is that correct?

Kv × battery volts give a theoretical top speed on traditional controllers but the vector foc controllers can exchange amps for volts in a way to extend rpm range at expense of more amps and more total power.

From what i understand the motor must have a torque reserve to get effective field weakening and not overheat the motor so a 48v system field weakeneing to get a 72v hub closer to its potential rpm fine.

48v motor on a 72v system allready pushed to its limit and then field weakening on top is going to push motor into saturation point get very hot and seal its fate.

Good info!
The Nucular controllers report motor voltage. I'll have to watch this and see what real motor wattage is.
More torque (reserve): If FW is as you say, then I should just turn up my phase amps to whatever gets me maximum torque.
My motor does not get hot and frankly with the violent stuttering when I set the Nuculars to 300 phase amps I can't get it hot anyway.

 

[Addy]

So to get motor power kW from Phase amps, you need to know the motor voltage

can't multiply times battery voltage

is that correct?

That's right.

Calculating battery power works alright to get the approximate motor power, but it would be less accurate if field weakening is involved. This is because part of the battery energy is being used to weaken the motor magnets instead of directly moving the motor.

 

[fubgumfaw]

So to get motor power kW from Phase amps, you need to know the motor voltage

can't multiply times battery voltage

is that correct?

That's right.

Calculating battery power works alright to get the approximate motor power, but it would be less accurate if field weakening is involved. This is because part of the battery energy is being used to weaken the motor magnets instead of directly moving the motor.

How does that work? Weaken the magnets? It's magnet Field Weakening...this is what you are saying? I know that stronger magnets will lower Kv and weaker ones will raise Kv. Is this really what is happening inside the motor when you use FW? I'm super curious to read a practical explanation of how this is done in a motor. I'm not super technical and math or some technical white paper will just baffle me!

 

[Ianhill]

Yes its done with timing of the field so its like you expained the physical properties the same is happening in the motor but through software firing the field coils thats why that reserve is needed as the core is still experiencing increase in power handling.

 

[Ianhill]

Vector foc uses a more accurate may to fire the phases so after a full set of 3 phases pulsing any uneven points of a motor will leave hysteresis in the core thats eddy currents if this keeps happening the motor overheats there's associated losses that comes with the motor but this is additional bad commitation losses vector foc maps the motor better to keep the motor cooler and hsve effectively a little power boost by having a cleaner signal run the motor as all the motor cares about for its rpm is frequency of its pulses.

Like a brushed motor can have its timing advanced by rotating the brush pick ups its like setting a few negative or plus degrees timing on a car it effects the torque and rpm output of the motor that then effects the no load current when spinning and the amount of amos the ride uses theres no lunch for free with any of them