Hubmonster teardown

[fubgumfaw]

I saw these and was temped to get a couple of them.
Can you pop the cover off that controller so we can see inside?

A new Chinese FOC controller that is hopefully lots better than what happened with Sabvoton! Back in the day (2014), they were decent, but the company went out of business and maybe the factory that made controllers for Sabvoton continued making them? Whatever it was that happened, quality suffered and reliability got lots worse. Hopefully these are much better than modern Sabvotons.

A manufacturer can quote any random number for speed for a controller. It doesn't mean anything. Speed is all about weight of EV, aerodynamics, load on the motor and whether the motor can drive the EV to XYZ speed. The controller is just spinning a motor. What happens after that is what defines top speed. I saw this spec and ignored it for the marketing hype that it is.

eRPM...I'd like to know this too. Good luck exploding a motor by spinning it too fast. I can see it happening with an inrunner and popping loose magnets, but a hub or outrunner...not likely.

 

[Ianhill]

I not seen the speed rating been used before but im not going to be to picky at this price range.

Soon as it arrives ill pop the cover get some pics see if its potted up and part numbers on fets sanded off if not try work out whats what with it but im not to hopeful most stuff got the goo these days and its a blind mystery just got hope its not murder she wrote.

If the motor wont give with evil rpm ill make a grind slice in the case force a failure somehow

 

[John in CR]

The red scoops are screwed on and they face the right direction for cooling in the forward direction for motor spin.

Scoops don't do squat...blades do. We went through the math of it here on the forum years ago. If those pictured are on the left side, then they absolutely face the wrong direction and would just direct dust and sand into your motor. I'll try to post some pics for you.

 

[John in CR]

Got a bld72701 controller and water cooling block direct from manufacturer £223 delivered no import charges.

300batt amps 700phase amps, vector foc ,300% overspeed, bluetooth not sure on the erpm limit but they state 150kmh for some reason so they must have a motor configuration in mind but im no mind reader so ill have to use my touchy feely mistical powers to get that figure into erpm.

For that price ill take a punt on 22s it will be pushing 24kw peaks upto 27 with a strong enough pack so i took the less than £10 a kw gamble see what turns up next few weeks now.

If its any decent it will be powering that 10 inch i want time to start putting pennys in a jar.

1620660146654.png
IMG_20210510_161817361.jpg

Got a link for that controller?

 

[fubgumfaw]

I not seen the speed rating been used before but im not going to be to picky at this price range.

Soon as it arrives ill pop the cover get some pics see if its potted up and part numbers on fets sanded off if not try work out whats what with it but im not to hopeful most stuff got the goo these days and its a blind mystery just got hope its not murder she wrote.

If the motor wont give with evil rpm ill make a grind slice in the case force a failure somehow

LOL...love the creative failure thinking! Cutting the shell to create a weak spot will make it break. I have a 500 watt hub motor that is truly useless and huge. I'd like to cause it a catastrophic failure!

 

[fubgumfaw]

The red scoops are screwed on and they face the right direction for cooling in the forward direction for motor spin.

Scoops don't do squat...blades do. We went through the math of it here on the forum years ago. If those pictured are on the left side, then they absolutely face the wrong direction and would just direct dust and sand into your motor. I'll try to post some pics for you.

Blades...you mean radial fans I think. I've used them on inrunners and outrunners. Pretty easy to 3D print them to suit the motor. I'm not sure how I'd implement them on a hub motor. I guess just mount it direct to the side cover. Probably my vent holes would work with a radial fan on one side so it pulls air into the motor on one side and slings it out the other.

So scoops facing backwards work better than facing the direction of spin? Seems odd, but OK. I think those scoops are as much about keeping fingers and metal objects out of the vent holes as they are for cooling.

 

[fubgumfaw]

Does anyone know anything about the Fardriver controllers? They are advertised as FOC.
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005002531263110.html?spm=2114.12010612.8148356.20.3d7235ab1x9JzI

I have not looked, but there's invariably a thread or two on them. Looks like it doesn't support variable regen.

 

[fubgumfaw]

Got a bld72701 controller and water cooling block direct from manufacturer £223 delivered no import charges.

300batt amps 700phase amps, vector foc ,300% overspeed, bluetooth not sure on the erpm limit but they state 150kmh for some reason so they must have a motor configuration in mind but im no mind reader so ill have to use my touchy feely mistical powers to get that figure into erpm.

I was briefly looking at this controller just a couple of days ago. Now I can't find it and you made me curious about it. Please post that URL.

300% over speed: That's field weakening. They are claiming a motor at its Kv limit of like 100 RPM can with FW do 300 RPM. I've seen this before. No load...sure 300% might be doable. I've seen 200% from an ASI controller under no load. It was silly and the inrunner motor got hot pretty fast. Under load, with an IPM...200%...maybe, but I'm skeptical. With any other motor under load, I suspect 50% more RPM with FW is probably pushing it. For credibility to this estimate, see Nucular controllers. They implement FW and it works really well without a giant efficiency hit. The maximum in Nucular controllers is 130%.

 

[Ianhill]

500/1200amps at 96v too mama mia thats 50kw for £620 posted thats mental power.

Your going to feed the hubmonster some dinner i take it.

I know 300% is crazy you got to be careful with these controllers easy to enter kill mode and with a quick twist somethings fryed, there's no regen on them i assume just high low break i think.

[youtube]E6WgjtZUmKw[/youtube]

This guy shows the bld 72501 spinning a hub and thats advertises 30kph slower that the 701 what ever that means if anything at all but theres no waterblock in the pictures for the 501 but $25 for the 701 water block crazy they are.

 

[fubgumfaw]

500/1200amps at 96v too mama mia thats 50kw for £620 posted thats mental power.

Your going to feed the hubmonster some dinner i take it.

I know 300% is crazy you got to be careful with these controllers easy to enter kill mode and with a quick twist somethings fryed, there's no regen on them i assume just high low break i think.

That video helped. I wasn't sure from your pictures what the controller name is...BLOOD...LOL!
I found the 72501 on aliexpress:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000781908321.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.0.0.689158c0VpaesT&algo_pvid=02482b27-e8e8-4b93-84da-b2c8f17854aa&algo_expid=02482b27-e8e8-4b93-84da-b2c8f17854aa-0&btsid=0b0a556d16209303033928994e8b24&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_,searchweb201603_

$500 for a 15kw FOC controller seems unlikely. It makes me wonder what corners were cut. With this sort of thing you usually get what you pay for. An easy corner to cut is name brand mosfets in favor of Chinese ones or insufficient buss filtering like is common in Sabvoton clones or copper buss reinforcing being solder braid instead of solid copper...etc.

I'm not sure it's compelling to get these controllers for the Zap scooter. However, like I said above, I can copy ElectricGods idea of making one into a much higher power outrunner in which case more powerful controllers than the Nucular 24 fets might be in my future.

 

[fubgumfaw]

Blood BLD72701...clone of the Kelly KLS72702-8080i?
The specs are super close to the same based on what Ian posted.

https://www.kellycontrollers.eu/kls72701-8080i

Here's the BLD72701 on alibaba:

https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Blood-72701-Scooter-electric-motorcycle-mute_1600186708975.html?spm=a2700.galleryofferlist.normal_offer.d_title.69676b13WhGKMf

This is insanely cheap! $270 for a 20kw controller...I'm really wondering what they did to make it so cheap? I'll probably buy couple of samples to try out. Personally, I think they won't be very good.

https://imgur.com/kKXvjKW

Thanks Ian for getting me to take a second look. They are pretty basic FOC controllers. I looked at the video you posted and didn't see any real advanced FOC setup like is common in VESC/Nucular/ASI. Maybe there's a windows app for the full setup of the controller? It really reminds me of the old Sabvoton app...which is also a very basic FOC set up. No variable regen braking kind of sucks.

 

[Ianhill]

Its on alibaba half the price that links a reseller.

Dissecting the video i can see its got 3 speed modes on the Bluetooth app and a boost button so it can plod about mode 1 then boost into warp mod.

Theres a guy on youtube called rexsmith 2 or ii and he gone and done a dual 4000w qs motor monster pushing 40kw check it out.

 

[fubgumfaw]

We've gotten waaaaaay off topic from these hub motors! Can this section about Blood and other controllers be edited out and made into a new thread? I think leaving the YMMOTOR stuff here is OK.

 

[Ianhill]

Mods please make a new thread called
blood bld 72701 controller
ill update my progress to that then ta.

 

[fubgumfaw]

Mods please make a new thread called
blood bld 72701 controller
ill update my progress to that then ta.

Moderators: Not quite everything after this post (by Ianhill » May 13 2021 5:33am) should get moved. There's some discussion about motors in there that ought to stay here. Please check for them before moving everything. Thanks!

Leave these here please:
by fubgumfaw » May 13 2021 10:12am
by John in CR » May 13 2021 9:52am

This and everything else after it can go to the new thread:
by Ianhill » May 13 2021 5:33am

 

[John in CR]

This and everything else after it can go to the new thread:

Threads often drift off topic, and mods shouldn't waste their time moving things around. FWIW, unlike my Nucular controllers, Chinese controllers should never be run at max power or the sure result is blown controllers.

Also, the route to extreme power with a HubMonster is high voltage. Once you get above 150A battery side per controller pushing an all up load of 200kg, you need to watch your load, gearing, and how you ride or you can run into heat issues with a stock motor. The more aggressive you ride the more risk of a long hill causing issues. OTOH HubMonsters are perfectly happy running well above 120V as long as you don't gear too steeply. My dream is the day we can get cheap controllers that can handle a real 200v and 200A battery side with 300A phase limits. Since I've already been to over 180kph, that will push me well past 200kph, but the real performer would be taking it out of wheel (ventilated of course with a filtered air intake) and gear it down to 100-120kph and feed it with a quite conservative 50kw. At 125A x 2 and 200V at that kind of gearing, as long as you keep the all up load below 250kg or so with that kind of gearing you could ride as hard as you want and climb anything without drive system stress as long as your battery lasts. Riding without repetitive hard accelerations or long steep hills, you could easily go to 60-70kw with 200V controllers for incredible showing off ability when you want.

 

[larsb]

I doubt we will ever get these controllers cheaply due to that 200V is serious territory. It’s probably easier to rewind it for a higher kV.

What phase amp is needed to exploit the full potential? Is it at 300A or even more?

I’ve seen 105Nm speced for the zapinos which isn’t a lot, would only take 150 phase amp at 14kV in theory.

 

[fubgumfaw]

Also, the route to extreme power with a HubMonster is high voltage. Once you get above 150A battery side per controller pushing an all up load of 200kg, you need to watch your load, gearing, and how you ride or you can run into heat issues with a stock motor. The more aggressive you ride the more risk of a long hill causing issues. OTOH HubMonsters are perfectly happy running well above 120V as long as you don't gear too steeply. My dream is the day we can get cheap controllers that can handle a real 200v and 200A battery side with 300A phase limits. Since I've already been to over 180kph, that will push me well past 200kph, but the real performer would be taking it out of wheel (ventilated of course with a filtered air intake) and gear it down to 100-120kph and feed it with a quite conservative 50kw. At 125A x 2 and 200V at that kind of gearing, as long as you keep the all up load below 250kg or so with that kind of gearing you could ride as hard as you want and climb anything without drive system stress as long as your battery lasts. Riding without repetitive hard accelerations or long steep hills, you could easily go to 60-70kw with 200V controllers for incredible showing off ability when you want.

Over 100v and FOC is expensive. For example that Australian company with the funny name. I tried to buy a couple of theirs some time back and nearly dropped my jaw on the floor over the price! I've been watching the various VESC projects all claiming 150v and wow...look at them all not going anywhere! LOL! I think the PowerVelocity Project might see the light of day the soonest. It has potential of 200v or more. There's no real limits to 150v in the design that I see. I wonder why Nucular doesn't go above 100v? They are way ahead of everybody else! I'd buy them if they made them.

There is an option that is not outrageous. You get the inverter module from a hybrid car and one of these. Who cares if you run the IGBT's at well under their voltage limits.
https://openinverter.org/docs/index.html%3Fen_home,3.html

My motor...It's seeing 309 phase amp peaks at 82v that's 50kw now. I see 200 amps in them pretty commonly at 82v or 32kw. The venting makes that possible. Without it, I can't run but half that hard. I've replaced my 2 weakest battery packs with much larger ones. I was seeing random power cutouts at 250 battery amps per controller or 41kw so I think that's fixed now. I also upgraded the rest of the electrical system so that it can handle 300 amps continuous per controller. This is the upper limit that Nucular claims. I'm going to be seeing 50kw a lot more often now I think. I'll also add a large heatsink under the 2 controllers to aid in their cooling. I discovered a controller issue with Nuculars thanks to my build. 2 in parallel will create some interesting back feed issues that blows up the logic boards. My last two 24 fets went back to Russia and I recently got replacements. They got set up last night. Vasily and I have been talking about a protection circuit to stop those small electronics failures from ever happening. I have the parts, just waiting on the proto board to arrive so I can build it. I need a BMS for one of the packs so they are all XiaoXiang BMS's, but the electrical it otherwise golden. That BMS is on order...

I'd really like to build at 32S or higher, but there's things I can't do...like invent controllers. I can build the battery pack and 32S or higher BMS's are pretty common. No problems there. I guess I'd need to find a 150v DC-DC too...can't really make one of those either. Oh yeah...and my paycheck is only so big so I can't afford the expensive stuff either!

When you say gear too steeply, a 12" wheel and tire ought to be OK right? The Zap had a 10" wheel on it originally, but then I saw somewhere on here that the RMartin has 12" wheels so I replaced mine with 12". This is OK right? I mean longer term when/if I upgrade to higher voltage? My back tire is 120/70-12. I'm pretty sure that's what I saw on that RMartin. This better be OK! LOL! I bought 12" cast wheels and then machined one of them to fit my motor. Looks super nice!

https://imgur.com/YhJLYVa
https://imgur.com/Kqhuxnc
https://imgur.com/ahGRP9c

550 pounds or 250kg all up is quite doable. I guess I personally should lose some weight. I wonder what my Zap scooter weighs? I'll find out once it's all back together again.

I took my swing arm off tonight. I plan to be machining new torque arms over the weekend that clamp to the entire shaft flats. The dropouts won't make contact with the flats anywhere. I'll be machining out the dropouts significantly so the torque arms can carry all the motor load. Just tonight I noticed that my 12" rear tire barely clears the battery box. If I go over a bump, the tire will impact it. I need to move the back wheel out about an inch so it's clear again. I might as well build this into the new torque arms too.

https://imgur.com/Cr8Iddo

 

[ridethelightning]

awesome wheel build! Where did you get the wheels please?

i have done something similar with cast 5 spoke 12"wheels, but i had to make a stainless ring adapter to get it to match up with the existing holes in the motor flange.

i did see the little cast 12" wheels with holes in them, but i couldnt find them in the right size at the time.

 

[John in CR]

ow I think. I'll also add a large heatsink under the 2 controllers to aid in their cooling. I discovered a controller issue with Nuculars thanks to my build. 2 in parallel will create some interesting back feed issues that blows up the logic boards.

When you say gear too steeply, a 12" wheel and tire ought to be OK right? The Zap had a 10" wheel on it originally, but then I saw somewhere on here that the RMartin has 12" wheels so I replaced mine with 12". This is OK right?

I have dual 12F Nucs on 4 different bikes and the only issue I've ever had is that occasionally only one controller response when I jump on the throttle too aggressively from a dead stop, but returning the throttle to zero and twisting again makes it go every time. My pair of 24F's are waiting for the right project.

Regarding tire size, it sounds like you have MidMonsters, not HubMonsters. HubMonsters are slightly larger and come only with a 13" rim, though they may have made some with smaller for other companies. I'd love to get one with 12's as the smallest OD I've found in a 13 is 19.25", which is what I generally run. I have some with larger, including an EEB with a large 16" motor tire. That bike lacks real launch thrust, but the short wheelbase and high CG prevent what my lower longer scooters can do.

What Kv is the Nuc reporting on the motor(s) you have? What's the diameter of the bolt on cover?

Also note that the factory made a lot of versions of the same design using the same cast shells...different stator widths and different windings, so you can't know exactly what you have without measuring Kv and Phase-to-phase winding resistance.

 

[ridethelightning]

Regarding tire size, it sounds like you have MidMonsters, not HubMonsters. HubMonsters are slightly larger and come only with a 13" rim, though they may have made some with smaller for other companies

im pretty sure i have the full size hubmonster, it came in a pressed steel 10" rim. i think it was either from a efun evd or xtreme, but ill never know.

Also note that the factory made a lot of versions of the same design using the same cast shells...different stator widths and different windings, so you can't know exactly what you have without measuring Kv and Phase-to-phase winding resistance.

interesting. sounds like its worth checking the phase resistance on the one i have, and aslo the stator width.

 

[Ianhill]

I wish i could get a hub monster in uk decent price


I do like sitting in the dry see much quicker to get about, I can imagine one of these with 50kw would get about decent i really like the idea of it drop it on its arse and take away most the wheel travel place the batterys strategically the handling wont be too bad either.

Proberly be easier to make an alloy spaceframe to replace the original and drop the body back on get the weight all low to the ground and a big arse hub motor hub front.

Even the 7kw 10inch would work at the 25kw mark but the top speed be about 50mph needing the torque heavy wind version to get up the big hills, on the flat you would struggle to beat its wh per mile while been inside something rather than on it and it look mint doimg massive burn outs it be a slow moving drift machine.

 

[toolman2]

My motor...It's seeing 309 phase amp peaks at 82v that's 50kw now.

That is not correct and this appeared to have been successfully clarified by a number of members over the last page or two.

-When phase amps are at their peak, the motor rpm and voltage are going to be at a minimum. At this point your display for battery power consumption is going to reflect this fact and likely be reading closer to 5kw.

 

[larsb]

Thanks, i’ve just about given up on getting this through to fub...whatever/electricgod

 

[Ianhill]

[youtube]FwPysVi4hJ0[/youtube]

Its back with more detail, single controller feeding that hub after all.