Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

[The Toecutter]

Thanks Amberwolf. I came across that in my searches but thought from the comments here there was an entirely different threat with more info.

Thanks for linking to Luke's channel. LOTS of interesting stuff there. I could not locat a video of him testing the Leafbike motor though.

Could figure it a 3k motor if you keep FF in it and monitored and don't lug it. Riding with out power at times, don't find any cogging that bothers me. Have road with it for over 3yrs and may be accustomed to it.

3kW would theoretically almost be enough power to continuously cruise at 90 mph on flat ground without overheating if I get the aerodynamics the way I want them. This motor is definitely suitable for an ultralight vehicle with car-like performance. That says a lot given its low price.

 

[BalorNG]

Would that require DMV registration?

Can't imagine insurance, best save the decorations for after that's been finalised

I don't concern myself with such things. The vehicle depicted above reflects my sensibilities and values. I have no drivers license or id card. It isn't explicitly illegal in my state, that being said. I've even discussed the matter with an attorney, and he recommended not to do anything stupid because the purely technical non-illegality of the vehicle wouldn't be enough to keep the cops away. That legal status could change if ebikes become defined in the legal code, but that won't change my usage of the vehicle. I tend to cruise around 30-35 mph and that won't change as long as I'm using a KMX for a base platform.

With that said, below are some simulation results, with the assumptions outlined.

Laden mass: 120 kg
CdA: 0.06 m^2 (new body shell planned. The current one is at least 3x this value)
Crr: 0.008
Pedal input: 500W (full effort)
Drive wheel: 20" diameter
72Vnom battery pack

4kW limit with 150A phase current, I get the following:

0-30 mph 4.4 secs
0-60 mph 15.7 secs
1/8 mile 11.9 secs @ 52.3 mph
¼ mile 19.5 secs @ 65.3 mph
Top speed 71 mph

8 kW limit with 250A phase current:

0-30 mph 2.8 secs
0-60 mph 9.9 secs
1/8 mile 10.1 secs @ 60.3 mph
¼ mile 17.0 secs @ 67.8 mph
Top speed 71 mph

10 kW limit with 250A phase current:

0-30 mph 2.6 secs
0-60 mph 9.2 secs
1/8 mile 9.8 secs @ 61.1 mph
¼ mile 16.7 secs @ 68.0 mph
Top speed 71 mph

As I get stronger, the bike will get faster. If I were to do a bunch of squats and train like a pro athlete to get to the point where I could squat 300 lbs at my 140 lb weight and make about 1200W at the pedal crank for ~15 seconds at a time, I could get significantly faster, especially considering the acceleration from the motor starts to reduce dramatically after about 45 mph.

8 kW limit with 250A phase limit and 1200W pedaling:

0-30 mph 2.5 secs
0-60 mph 8.7 secs
1/8 mile 9.7 secs @ 62.1 mph
¼ mile 16.4 secs @ 69.8 mph
Top speed 71 mph

10 kW limit with 250A phase current and 1200W pedaling:

0-30 mph 2.3 secs
0-60 mph 8.1 secs
1/8 mile 9.4 secs @ 62.7 mph
¼ mile 16.1 secs @ 69.9 mph
Top speed 71 mph

Also, there are ebike controllers that can go to 130V, but they don't have the features I'd like. If an FOC controller of about 2 lbs were to come onto the market that could do 130V and output at least 250A phase current(such a controller may be out soon in fact), and I were to pedal with 500W instead of 1200W with the motor limited to 10kW, we get the following results for the ultimate theoretical configuration with this motor:

0-30 mph 2.5 secs
0-60 mph 7.4 secs
1/8 mile 9.0 secs @ 74.3 mph
¼ mile 15.0 secs @ 84.7 mph
Top speed 118 mph

All of these results are very car-like. Not bad for a cheap Chinese motor in a vehicle that can still be operated purely on pedal power even faster than a triathlon bike in most settings. I wish they'd make a better motor that was lighter, more efficient, less lossy, could handle more applied power, and used a stronger design for the freewheel/cassette placement and axle. Imagine the 1000W 3T version of their motor set up as such with ultrathin 0.05mm lams, stronger magnets, and able to handle 15 kW peak @ 72V. If that kind of power could be pushed to the motor, 0-60 mph would be under 6 seconds and top speed into the 80+ mph range, and I'd really like to be able to screw around with fast cars at stop lights. The existing 1500W motor you can buy will merely keep up with normal cars, which still would be impressive all things considered.

Your new velo will be tadpole? I really do not think you'll get anywhere close to those acceleration values, you'll get wheelspin.

You want single stage reduction middrives on each of your front wheels, but that it would be easy on your current setup, but not so easy on a velo with closed wheel wells and wheel that need to articulate.

If my experience is of any indication, two motors that cost 50$ and weight 2 pounds each will output 3kw at 60 mph (each!) even with limited cooling. I want to experiment with torque vectoring on a setup like this, but that would be a project for the next year unfortunately...

 

[The Toecutter]

Your new velo will be tadpole? I really do not think you'll get anywhere close to those acceleration values, you'll get wheelspin.

Keeping the tadpole layout. You're probably correct about me not attaining the projected acceleraton values. The simulation assumed a drag strip environment with a 1.6 coefficient of static friction value.

As for the rest, I prefer to keep everything as simple and as uncomplicated as possible to achieve the desired goals. The only time I'd consider multiple motors is if a hub motor was put to market with zero or near zero cogging losses when operating unpowered that could mount to my front spindles. Grin makes an all-axle hub motor that has cogging losses similar to my Leafbike motor, but two of those in addition to my Leafbike motor would make it nearly unpedalable with the drive system shut off. I'm trying to stay away from having to fabricate a bunch of parts considering how much time it takes just to do a body shell and I also like having less things to break, so I'll skip the complicated mess of trying to get a mid drive setup to work with each front wheel. I ride mine a lot more than I work on it and that's how I like it(and need for it to function).

So for now, one Leafbike motor will do nicely, even if I don't in reality achieve the aforementioned simulated acceleration values. It'll be "good enough" and able to at least mix with automobile traffic quite well. And eventually, may even become built rugged enough to cruise at freeway speeds.

 

[BalorNG]

Your new velo will be tadpole? I really do not think you'll get anywhere close to those acceleration values, you'll get wheelspin.

Keeping the tadpole layout. You're probably correct about me not attaining the projected acceleraton values. The simulation assumed a drag strip environment with a 1.6 coefficient of static friction value.

As for the rest, I prefer to keep everything as simple and as uncomplicated as possible to achieve the desired goals. The only time I'd consider multiple motors is if a hub motor was put to market with zero or near zero cogging losses when operating unpowered that could mount to my front spindles. Grin makes an all-axle hub motor that has cogging losses similar to my Leafbike motor, but two of those in addition to my Leafbike motor would make it nearly unpedalable with the drive system shut off. I'm trying to stay away from having to fabricate a bunch of parts considering how much time it takes just to do a body shell and I also like having less things to break, so I'll skip the complicated mess of trying to get a mid drive setup to work with each front wheel. I ride mine a lot more than I work on it and that's how I like it(and need for it to function).

So for now, one Leafbike motor will do nicely, even if I don't in reality achieve the aforementioned simulated acceleration values. It'll be "good enough" and able to at least mix with automobile traffic quite well. And eventually, may even become built rugged enough to cruise at freeway speeds.

Note that any system w/o a freewheel that is capable of power you want WILL be 'unpedalable' when off due to motor drag, barring exotic motors that will cost a fortune, be heavy and/or expencive - even 0.05 laminations (that are nigh unobtanium) are a not a panacea, because hysteresis torque will now dominate, just at higher power.
I agree that middrives will be complex, but you will not get a 'simple' solution for 'high power yet pedalable bike', not in forceeable future at least, and complex yet attainable beats simple yet unattainable if you ask me...

 

[The Toecutter]

Note that any system w/o a freewheel that is capable of power you want WILL be 'unpedalable' when off due to motor drag, barring exotic motors that will cost a fortune, be heavy and/or expencive - even 0.05 laminations (that are nigh unobtanium) are a not a panacea, because hysteresis torque will now dominate, just at higher power.
I agree that middrives will be complex, but you will not get a 'simple' solution for 'high power yet pedalable bike', not in forceeable future at least, and complex yet attainable beats simple yet unattainable if you ask me...

All true. The Leafbike motor is as close as it gets to what I want in the present. While it may not offer as much performance as I'd like, it is very pedalable if I unplug the battery and I can sprint to 35 mph on flat ground including powering through the cogging losses in a vehicle that is not nearly as aerodynamic as it could be. And it is capable of making enough power to accelerate like a car. So for now, it is my choice of motor. I expect the cogging losses versus my current configuration to increase when I go to a 16" DOT wheel in the rear because of the increased rpm vs speed, but may be more than offset by aerodynamic drag reduction of the next shell. We'll see. If Leafbike simply improved upon their existing motor and built a premium version with increased efficiency/less cogging losses/less stator width/stronger magnets/more cooling/stronger axle/thicker phase wires/ect, it would likely be a close match for what I am seeking anyhow.

I like the idea of 16" moto rims on all three wheels because if necessary I could fit a 20" bicycle tire to the wheel, which is about the most common size of any tire that could be scrounged here in the U.S. given the ubiquitous presence of childrens' BMX bikes that use this tire size. Trying to build an "apocalypse velomobile".

 

[john61ct]

Do they work for fattish balloon tires?

Forest / BLM roads...

 

[The Toecutter]

I'm going to skip the balloon tires altogether and go to something like the following:

https://www.mitas-moto.com/en/products/moped-tires/mc-2

Definitely not ideal for offroad, but at low speeds at low wattages, they'll likely do the job okay. The main concern going offroad will be ground clearance. I'll have 5.5" of it. My current design iteration can be used over paved roads that are in poor condition quite well, and will be greatly improved with the addition of rear suspension and sturdier rims/tires.

With the Leafbike 3T 1500W wind that will be used, those tires would be a good match for the performance capabilities of the vehicle, and are hopefully of a low enough Crr to be pedaled with the battery disabled. If not, I'll go to Schwalbe Marathon Pluses on the heavier duty moto rims.

If for whatever reason the tires I use get damaged/worn/destroyed and circumstances are such that I can't just order replacements, scrounging tires from a BMX bike will be a good substitute for keeping the speeds 30 mph or less. But at last it would still be going, and still pedal able too.

 

[john61ct]

Schwalbe Marathon Plus is available that small??

In any case my fattie question still stands for my use case

 

[The Toecutter]

I didn't understand the context you were asking.

You'd have to specify your tire size to Leafbike when you make an order so they can provide you with a rim that will fit your tire. They asked me my tire size and told me the motor would come built with a rim optimized for that tire size.

 

[john61ct]

Sorry I was not more clear. Nothing to do with Leaf specifically.

This was the context

when I go to a 16" DOT wheel in the rear

...

I like the idea of 16" moto rims on all three wheels because if necessary I could fit a 20" bicycle tire to the wheel, which is about the most common size of any tire that could be scrounged here in the U.S. given the ubiquitous presence of childrens' BMX bikes that use this tire size.

And again, this is the specific question

Do they (16" moto rims) work for fattish balloon tires?

Forest / BLM roads...

 

[The Toecutter]

If the rim is an appropriate width, then a balloon tire should work just fine.

Here is a chart for sizing bicycle tires for your bicycle rim width:

https://i.stack.imgur.com/S0Tib.jpg

Here is a chart for sizing motorcycle tires for your motorcycle rim width:

https://www.blogotive.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/Motorcycle-Wheel-Rim-Width-for-Tires-Size.pdf

Do keep in mind motorcycle wheels and bicycle wheels are sized differently. Once you know how they are sized, you can use the data from the above charts to figure out what will and will not work.

Albeit, if you're going to go through the trouble of upgrading to moto rims, there are better tires than bicycle-specific balloon tires to compliment them.

 

[Bullfrog]

If you are going to run bicycle tires, look for something that is ECE-R75 rated for 50 kph.

ECE-R75 tires I know of are the Schwalbe Super Moto-X and the Pick-up, there may be other Schwalbe options as well as other manufacturers as well.

 

[john61ct]

if you're going to go through the trouble of upgrading to moto rims, there are better tires than bicycle-specific balloon tires to compliment them.

"Better" as in giving suspension-like comfort off road?

Or robust resistance to puncture carrying heavy loads?

Ideally I want both

I also like your apocalypse-readiness idea, looking for the best of all possible worlds, least compromises.

Yes speeds are slow, maybe 12-15mph

 

[ZeroEm]

Need to be careful trying to use bicycle tires for fast, heavier uses. Schwalbe Marathon Plus have the speed stamped on the tire. It's only 20-30mph. I'm sure the tire if good for short peaks of 50 mph with bicycle type weights. This is above what they rate it for. Planning on riding like a car at 50-70mph is a risk but if you do it then post back and let us know how they do.

 

[ebike4healthandfitness]

if you're going to go through the trouble of upgrading to moto rims, there are better tires than bicycle-specific balloon tires to compliment them.

"Better" as in giving suspension-like comfort off road?

Or robust resistance to puncture carrying heavy loads?

Ideally I want both

My guess is that you best chance for that would be a tubeless motorcycle tire.

(Notice I said best chance. I did not guarantee you would get it.)

 

[spinningmagnets]

Moped tires are a good fit for hot rod ebikes. A nice balance between weight and performance.

A "motorcycle" tire must be capable of safely riding over 100-MPH..Moped tires are lighter, but heavier than bicycle tires.

For off-road, some ebikers are using the Shinko rear tire, which has four layers of ply. Most moped tires are 2-ply.

 

[ebike4healthandfitness]

Good point.

I should have written tubeless moped tires....if such a thing exists. Perhaps tubeless scooter tires as well.

 

[The Toecutter]

Need to be careful trying to use bicycle tires for fast, heavier uses. Schwalbe Marathon Plus have the speed stamped on the tire. It's only 20-30mph. I'm sure the tire if good for short peaks of 50 mph with bicycle type weights. This is above what they rate it for. Planning on riding like a car at 50-70mph is a risk but if you do it then post back and let us know how they do.

Cedric Lynch has already done it on Marathon Pluses. Here is his vehicle:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omIlvnNqFyc

That said, they aren't rated for that. They're rated for 50 km/h. But they do work for his usage case. His vehicle with him in it is over 400 lbs.

I might be able to get away with a Mitas MC2 16x2.25" in the rear and Schwalbe Marathon Plus 406x47 up front. That would probably be a very pedalable setup with the motor disabled. It would require some testing at higher speeds to determine if I found its operating characteristics and perceived safety to be acceptable. The real danger is the rear tire blowing out, which the Mitas MC2 is rated for 62 mph continuous in a 500+ lb laden vehicle while my total laden weight will be well under 300 lbs so the potential to have a bit more margin exists, whereas if I lose a front tire I retain control fairly well.

 

[ZeroEm]

Remember the video but did not know what tires he was running. Good one to note.

 

[The Toecutter]

"Better" as in giving suspension-like comfort off road?

Or robust resistance to puncture carrying heavy loads?

Ideally I want both

I also like your apocalypse-readiness idea, looking for the best of all possible worlds, least compromises.

Yes speeds are slow, maybe 12-15mph

I was referring mostly to robustness of design, resistance to puncture, capability to offer traction, longevity, load rating, and similar factors. Comfort wasn't a concern, and if you have good suspension, the tires won't matter much in this regard.

The Hutchinson Spherus may be a good tire for your application.

 

[neptronix]

The hutchinson spherus is basically a bike tire with a little bit more rubber. More of a bike tire than a moto tire. The rubber 'hardness' is also much like a bike tire.

Great if you need just a little extra puncture protection.

Otherwise you probably want a SAVA/MITAS moto tire because they are some of the more puncture resilient tires.

If you go with a 22" wheel ( 18" moto equivalent ), there are a variety of lightweight-ish and narrow tires that don't look like motorcycle tires.. good stuff!!

 

[The Toecutter]

My new Leafbike 1500W 3T wind motor and ASI BAC4000 both arrived today. They'll probably sit for months before I get the chance to install them. I may buy agniusm's weldness battery pack modules and some Panasonic 21700s as well to expedite the build of a 72V pack. Hopefully sometime early next year I can get everything installed. In the event I can take a week off from work for Christmas(or if I get fired/laid off), I'll do it then.

I really want to haul some ass!

 

[Bullfrog]

Has anybody programmed an ASI BAC XXXX controller?

They appear to be a really good option for higher amperage but I am intimidated by what I don't know.

 

[E-HP]

Quick question: Are the motors currently being shipped with a thermistor in the stock configuration? I noticed mine arrived with a sixth (white) wire in the wire harness/Molex connector. I searched the thread, and it looks like it was an option in the past.

EDIT: Seems like regardless, it looks like I need to replace the thermistor anyway to work with my CA, so it looks like I have a few things to do before mounting the motor, like opening it up, replacing the thermistor, and adding Statorade at the same time. I may also replace the phase wires outside and up to the motor, but too lazy to run them all the way into the hub.

 

[amberwolf]

At room temperature, measure the resistance from the white wire to teh black wire, with motor not connected to anything. If it has around 10kohm resistance, it may already be one the CA can deal with. Alternately check voltage across the sensor with it hooke dup to the CA; Grin Tech says that "A 10K NTC thermistor will register around 3.3V at room temperature"

If so, hook it up to the CA's temperature sensor plug (even if with just clipped on wires) and see what the CA reads for temperature; if it's close to the actual room temperature, and the motor has been in the room with you for a couple hours or more, then you can try putting the motor outside for a couple hours in the direct sun, along with a regular thermometer, and then check the motor on the CA and see what it reads. If they're close, you're probably ok.

If it's pretty different, you may need to play wiht the Beta coefficient / value and offset in the CA settings to match yours, which might not take long if you use a "half / double" approach. (halve the value and see if you're closer or farther by a lot; if it's the wrong direction then double it instead. If you're closer, halve or double again, and so on, until you get within what you consider close enough, at room temperature and a "hot" temperature of your choosing. )

It's a lot easier than opening up the motor.

Of course, if you get no reading then there may be no sensor installed; you'll have to check, probably by opening it up.