Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

[neptronix]

ATF can degrade wiring..
Statorade has been used in the leaf with frankly shocking results.. heard of a guy pushing 20kw into it from a stall.. that's what it took to burn it out with ferrofluid in it.. :lol:

 

[john61ct]

Shockingly positive I take it?

Or were there any shocking downsides?

 

[neptronix]

I know, we have to be clear on a forum like this huh.. :lol:
I meant the performance out of a motor that size without blowing in a minute is shocking(ly) awesome.

 

[amberwolf]

Though it takes significantly more ATF to do the work that FF does, AFAICR.

Not sure how or if Statorade would affect a Leaf motor but some motors have problems when using Statorade and it may depend on who makes the Statorade and what "carrier" fluid they use.

Automatic Transmission Fluid is very inert and shouldn't cause a problem plus the cost is a LOT lower .

I have not used Statorade but low viscosity ATF has worked well for me in a couple different motors.

 

[spinningmagnets]

I was very pro-ATF until FF came along. For me the deciding factor was that no matter how diligent you are in sealing up the edge of the motor side-plates, the ATF would find some way to leak a drop or two on occasion. FF is constantly held in place by magnetism.

I believe he performance would be near identical, which is to say they both bridge the air-gap, transferring heat from the stator to the rotor and it's aluminum side-plates, to add thermal mass and for heat dissipation to the air...

 

[Bullfrog]

Just FYI for anyone not aware...Justin has incorporated the effects of Ferro Fluid in the Grin Tech Motor Simulator. You can run a motor with or without Statorade (Grin Tech's Ferro Fluid). The simulator is an extremely useful tool when you are pushing the limits and/or trying to decide what motor will work best for your situation.

The BIG unknown I'd like to see quantified is the difference between using an optimum amount of Ferro Fluid and using an optimum amount of Low Viscosity ATF. The cost of ATF is much less so if it comes anywhere close to Ferro Fluid and you can keep it from leaking, it would be my pick. I can verify using Permatex Ultra Gray will seal the interface where the cover attaches to the shell but I actually had ATF leak through the wiring i.e. between the copper strands and the insulating cover on the wires...it takes a while but capillary action will eventually produce leakage with ATF. I can also verify a drop of ATF on your brake rotor will drastically decrease your brakes effectiveness :lol: . My experience with ATF was with a MAC motor.

Luke (liveforphysics) said..."ATF is used for cooling in the GM Volt motor and Prius traction motors" so it obviously has potential.

 

[E-HP]

FF is constantly held in place by magnetism.

Is the drag introduced by adding too much Statorade caused by the carry fluid or the iron? I understand some people will top off their Statorade occasionally, but since the iron is held in place by magnetism, is the carry fluid still necessary when the iron has already been distributed to the magnets, and since topping off will add more iron, will that increase drag?

The ongoing relationship between the fluid itself and the ferrous material that does the work is unclear, unless the two work in tandem, and if the iron doesn't contribute to drag.

 

[The Toecutter]

If I were to run ferrofluid and have no other mods(no holes, no fans, ect.), what would be the maximum recommended power and phase current for a 3T wind Leafbike 1500W motor?

 

[spinningmagnets]

Add a temp sensor, and when the stator is at 140F, you are avoiding max resistance.

You can accelerate faster when going to the higher amps that result in a higher stator temp than 140F, but...it will drain your battery very fast, since you would be converting a lot of battery watts into waste-heat...

 

[spinningmagnets]

"...Is the drag introduced by adding too much Statorade caused by the carry fluid or the iron? I understand some people will top off their Statorade..."

The stator is stationary (*obviously), and the rotor spins. As more Statorade / FF is added, more of the friction of parts movement is engaged.

If faced with the decision of how much FF to add, I would add too much. The additional friction is small. Just my opinion, YMMV...

 

[The Toecutter]

I just ordered a hubsink for my motor. I don't know when I'll have this new motor ready to use(a lot of work needs to be done on my trike to prepare it for high speed), but hopefully it addresses the potential for overheating once installed with some ferrofluid. 10kW and 250A phase current is going to move quite nice for a bicycle car.

Do you think it might be able to do 3-4 kW continuous without overheating on a 2.5 kWh pack? If so, I'm looking at the theoretical possibility of a 90 mph cruising speed without overheating the motor once I eventually upgrade the voltage at least 96V.

How much drag does ferrofluid add? How noticeable is this drag when pedaling with the motor shut off?

 

[ZeroEm]

The drag is low with FF. They way you fill it you add until drag starts and stop there. 4-6 ml.

Getting off track with the leafmotor, it's a 1500w motor that can run at 2000w without getting hot. Above that you are wasting your battery making heat. It's not an issue to throw amps at it 3-4kw and get up to speed but riding continuous above 2000w you would be better off getting a bigger motor.

 

[The Toecutter]

Getting off track with the leafmotor, it's a 1500w motor that can run at 2000w without getting hot. Above that you are wasting your battery making heat. It's not an issue to throw amps at it 3-4kw and get up to speed but riding continuous above 2000w you would be better off getting a bigger motor.

I understand that. I was trying to find out how long it can operate at 4kW from the battery before overheating or damaging something? The Statorade plus hubsink should increase that "2000w without getting hot" to something more than 2,000W without getting hot. The question is how much more?

If it could theoretically run at 4 kW for 30 minutes without overheating, I'd drain the battery before there was a chance to cause damage. 4 kW would mean somewhere around 90 mph on my next body shell, if and only if I get an even higher voltage controller and battery pack than what will soon be going in it. The 72V system I'm about to build wouldn't allow it to do more than about 75-80 mph or so on a fully charged battery, and it would be using somewhere around 2,000-2,500W to maintain that speed range with a 0.06 m^2 CdA.

 

[Chalo]

As long as you know velomobile Cd is inversely proportional to suffering, then cool. Whatever floats your boat.

I'm less perverted than that about suffering.

 

[The Toecutter]

Being thin, I fit quite comfortable in both of mine. The only suffering to be had is when operating unmotorized during extreme heat. Elsewise, I greatly prefer this sort of bike to any other, especially from the standpoint of comfort.

I can focus on paying attention to the road and the automobile operators a lot more easily when I don't have to worry about staying balanced all the time, the body shell provides some rudimentary collision protection so it feels slightly safer, I never have to worry about falling off, I don't get sore riding it, the ducts provide excellent cooling while in motion, I never have to worry about sunburn, and the suspension makes it feel like being in a car.

...and the Leafbike motor is powerful enough to turn such a vehicle into a car from a performance standpoint, while being efficient enough to avoid compromising the pedal drivetrain's functionality to a state of uselessness.

Everything in my vehicle is nicely matched and I have no regrets building it. VERY happy with it. And the Milan is even more comfortable than the custom build, YET has the lowest CdA of nearly anything you could ever travel in. I'm eventually going to turn the custom build into something that will exceed the Milan's comfort by far.

 

[Bullfrog]

Being thin, I fit quite comfortable in both of mine. The only suffering to be had is when operating unmotorized during extreme heat. Elsewise, I greatly prefer this sort of bike to any other, especially from the standpoint of comfort.

I can focus on paying attention to the road and the automobile operators a lot more easily when I don't have to worry about staying balanced all the time, the body shell provides some rudimentary collision protection so it feels slightly safer, I never have to worry about falling off, I don't get sore riding it, the ducts provide excellent cooling while in motion, I never have to worry about sunburn, and the suspension makes it feel like being in a car.

...and the Leafbike motor is powerful enough to turn such a vehicle into a car from a performance standpoint, while being efficient enough to avoid compromising the pedal drivetrain's functionality to a state of uselessness.

Everything in my vehicle is nicely matched and I have no regrets building it. VERY happy with it. And the Milan is even more comfortable than the custom build, YET has the lowest CdA of nearly anything you could ever travel in. I'm eventually going to turn the custom build into something that will exceed the Milan's comfort by far.

As you probably know, voltage is proportional to the rpm the motor attempts to turn and amperage is proportional to the torque it produces but at some point the Amperage:Torque relationship becomes nonlinear and increasing the amperage only results in more heat. For a Leaf motor, I do NOT know the amperage where the nonlinearity starts to occur or at what rate it occurs. I was playing with the Grin Tech Motor Simulator yesterday and Statorade helps a lot with a DD hub motor but how much with a Leaf I couldn't tell you exactly because Grin Tech has not completely modeled it BUT the RH212 is very similar so you could use it to get some data.

Has anyone run a "high" amperage with a Leaf motor...if yes, please post what Battery and Phase amperages you ran and how well it worked.

Check out the run below using a RH212 "Fast" motor. It shows 134 degrees C difference with Statorade. A big concern I'd have is lack of airflow/cooling inside a "Velo" or anything similar.

 

[Bullfrog]

I'd guess you could run up to 150C steady state but that is purely a guess.

It is based on the fact that Justin ran a MAC at 145C on his dyno without any damage and I have run a MAC at 150C steady state on the road without damage.

The lacquer on the stator copper wiring may be the first thing to degrade. Maybe Leaf has some info as far as max temperature but I'd bet they will be pretty conservative with their answer . Might ask Grin Tech as well, they have been VERY helpful with me and my MAC experiments :thumb: .

Toecutter...what you are doing is very interesting and I am following just so I can learn even though I have no interest in going over ~30 mph on my bike :lol: .

 

[ZeroEm]

Yes it's efficient when used in it's range. You can cool it and run 4-7kw but that is not efficient. I understand you mixing the two. I try to do the same. Have found that on my trike that 2000w is enough for my high spirited rampages. Read up on neptronix and his motor when trying to ride this motor at hi-power for longer periods.

...and the Leafbike motor is powerful enough to turn such a vehicle into a car from a performance standpoint, while being efficient enough to avoid compromising the pedal drivetrain's functionality to a state of uselessness.

 

[Bullfrog]

Another run using the RH212 with the Kv set to 20, 96v battery, 26" wheel, and Full Recumbent drag. Assuming your battery and controller that can supply the amperage, I'd say you are going to have a very difficult time getting over ~80 mph.

 

[ebike4healthandfitness]

Getting off track with the leafmotor, it's a 1500w motor that can run at 2000w without getting hot. Above that you are wasting your battery making heat. It's not an issue to throw amps at it 3-4kw and get up to speed but riding continuous above 2000w you would be better off getting a bigger motor.

I understand that. I was trying to find out how long it can operate at 4kW from the battery before overheating or damaging something? The Statorade plus hubsink should increase that "2000w without getting hot" to something more than 2,000W without getting hot. The question is how much more?

The quote from ebikes.ca is 40% more for just statorade:

https://ebikes.ca/product-info/grin-products/statorade.html


"What does this mean in practice? Well, if you can double the amount of heat that a motor can dissipate, it means (due to the I2R relationship) you can run it at roughly 40% higher sustained torque and power without overheating. 40%! In practice, what this means is that bike rides that used to push your hub motor to 100+°C will now only result in ~70°C temperatures. And when the motor does get hot from a short intense power burst, then it be that much faster at cooling down and being ready for the next thrust of high power."

So that would take 2000 watts to 2800 watts for just the statorade by itself.

 

[The Toecutter]

Another run using the RH212 with the Kv set to 20, 96v battery, 26" wheel, and Full Recumbent drag. Assuming your battery and controller that can supply the amperage, I'd say you are going to have a very difficult time getting over ~80 mph.

On the contrary:

https://ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.h...rame=cust_0.06_0.007&mass=120&hp=200&axis=mph

93 mph, using a 27S5P pack of Panasonic NCR21700s(3.7Vnom, 5AH, 0.00014Ohm), with a 75A battery current limit, 250A phase current limit, 200W of pedaling, assuming 0.06 m^2 CdA, 0.007 Crr, with a 260 lb laden weight, with a Leafbike 1500W 3T wind(17.48 kV) in a 20" drive wheel using a Mitas MC2 16x2.25" tire. I'm designing my new shell off of my Milan SL velomobile, which has a CdA value of about 0.03 m^2, and I'm assuming my concessions to practicality(more ground clearance, easier to access mechanical bits, wider front track for improved cornering/lateral Gs, ect) and larger frontal area will double its drag. This is only 7 kW peak, 3.3kW of which are needed to maintain top speed according to my simulation linked above. I'm seriously planning on going to 10 kW peak with a larger pack or maybe running the cells @ 20A peak if I implement thermal management, and perhaps even going to a 108V nominal pack if the appropriate controller for that comes out next year. Heat buildup may not be a big issue even @ 20A per cell because I'll be at top speed in about 20 seconds from a stop.

Here's a simulation @ 108Vnom with a 30S5P pack of Panasonic NCR21700s with a 15A per cell limit:

https://ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.h..._0.06_0.007&mass=120&hp=200&axis=mph&kv=17.48

101 mph. 4.3kW required.

Things get retarded if I go to the 130V the PowerVelocity controllers are capable of:

https://ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.h..._0.06_0.007&mass=120&hp=200&axis=mph&kv=17.48

118 mph. 6.8kW required.

The best part is that with the motor shut off and nothing to kill its cogging losses(dead battery) this thing will be able to be pedaled to 25+ mph cruising speed on flat ground with 150W, 30 mph with 225W, and maybe reach 45+ mph in a 500W sprint. So range anxiety won't exist. Of course, being able to do 60+ miles @ 90+ mph would be nice too, but not sure the motor could handle that even with the cooling mods. 3-4kW wouldn't be too hard on it though for a few minutes at a time, so a little bit of high-speed jackassery on the highway would be quite viable. She's going to be adorned in an anarchy sign livery with a post apocalyptic rust-colored paintjob to match.

This simulator was quite accurate calculating my current iteration's top speed. It does about 45-47 mph real world with hard full-effort pedaling depending upon state of charge. Here's what the simulator says:

https://ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.h...t_0.2_0.007&mass=120&hp=600&axis=mph&kv=13.11

It currently has a CdA of 0.20 m^2 measured from coast-down testing using the RChung method, 46.8V 31AH pack of Greenway LiIon cells, with a Leafbike 4T 1500W in a 26" drive wheel. I also ran the trike with a throttle hooked up on a flat-ish road to see what its wattage consumption with zero pedaling was, and I was consistently getting about 400W @ 30 mph, which is also in-line with the simulator. I get a 150+ mile range, real world, cruising 30-35 mph, with moderate pedaling effort.

So, I think if I pull the next body shell off correctly, I will get results similar to what I've simulated in the links towards the top of this post. And if I do, it will be quite a fun machine to wander around in.

 

[Bullfrog]

Another run using the RH212 with the Kv set to 20, 96v battery, 26" wheel, and Full Recumbent drag. Assuming your battery and controller that can supply the amperage, I'd say you are going to have a very difficult time getting over ~80 mph.

On the contrary:

https://ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.h...rame=cust_0.06_0.007&mass=120&hp=200&axis=mph

93 mph, using a 27S5P pack of Panasonic NCR21700s(3.7Vnom, 5AH, 0.00014Ohm), with a 75A battery current limit, 250A phase current limit, 200W of pedaling, assuming 0.06 m^2 CdA, 0.007 Crr, with a 260 lb laden weight, with a Leafbike 1500W 3T wind(17.48 kV) in a 20" drive wheel using a Mitas MC2 16x2.25" tire. I'm designing my new shell off of my Milan SL velomobile, which has a CdA value of about 0.03 m^2, and I'm assuming my concessions to practicality(more ground clearance, easier to access mechanical bits, wider front track for improved cornering/lateral Gs, ect) and larger frontal area will double its drag. This is only 7 kW peak, 3.3kW of which are needed to maintain top speed according to my simulation linked above. I'm seriously planning on going to 10 kW peak with a larger pack or maybe running the cells @ 20A peak if I implement thermal management, and perhaps even going to a 108V nominal pack if the appropriate controller for that comes out next year. Heat buildup may not be a big issue even @ 20A per cell because I'll be at top speed in about 20 seconds from a stop.

Here's a simulation @ 108Vnom with a 30S5P pack of Panasonic NCR21700s with a 15A per cell limit:

https://ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.h..._0.06_0.007&mass=120&hp=200&axis=mph&kv=17.48

101 mph. 4.3kW required.

Things get retarded if I go to the 130V the PowerVelocity controllers are capable of:

https://ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.h..._0.06_0.007&mass=120&hp=200&axis=mph&kv=17.48

118 mph. 6.8kW required.

The best part is that with the motor shut off and nothing to kill its cogging losses(dead battery) this thing will be able to be pedaled to 25+ mph cruising speed on flat ground with 150W, 30 mph with 225W, and maybe reach 45+ mph in a 500W sprint. So range anxiety won't exist. Of course, being able to do 60+ miles @ 90+ mph would be nice too, but not sure the motor could handle that even with the cooling mods. 3-4kW wouldn't be too hard on it though for a few minutes at a time, so a little bit of high-speed jackassery on the highway would be quite viable. She's going to be adorned in an anarchy sign livery with a post apocalyptic rust-colored paintjob to match.

This simulator was quite accurate calculating my current iteration's top speed. It does about 45-47 mph real world with hard full-effort pedaling depending upon state of charge. Here's what the simulator says:

https://ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.h...t_0.2_0.007&mass=120&hp=600&axis=mph&kv=13.11

It currently has a CdA of 0.20 m^2 measured from coast-down testing using the RChung method, 46.8V 31AH pack of Greenway LiIon cells, with a Leafbike 4T 1500W in a 26" drive wheel. I also ran the trike with a throttle hooked up on a flat-ish road to see what its wattage consumption with zero pedaling was, and I was consistently getting about 400W @ 30 mph, which is also in-line with the simulator. I get a 150+ mile range, real world, cruising 30-35 mph, with moderate pedaling effort.

So, I think if I pull the next body shell off correctly, I will get results similar to what I've simulated in the links towards the top of this post. And if I do, it will be quite a fun machine to wander around in.

The big difference is I used "Full Recumbent" for the Drag Coefficient" and "0" input from the person on the bike. The difference in speeds from my runs to yours show how much drag can affect top speed :wink: .

I was suggesting you could use the RH212 to get a reasonable approximation of the core temperatures...as well as the top speeds when the correct drag is used, which I obviously didn't do. I did have to increase the Kv for the RH212 to get the top speeds to match and after I did the "Battery Amps" matched pretty close as well, therefore I would expect the temps to match fairly closely.

I don't know how much having the motor somewhat enclosed is going to affect temperatures but obviously they would be higher without air flow...using the RH212 with and without Statorade should give you a feel for how much it will help. With a thermistor you could measure it "real time" and would be something I would do since the conditions inside a velo will be fairly different than an open bike. All stuff you already know...just outlining it in case there is someone with less experience that wants to do something similar :thumb: .

If your temps get too high, you could always use a NACA duct on the side or sides of your velo to bring in air without increasing drag considerably.

Please keep us updated on how things go...I am following because I find it very interesting and I think you understand what is going on more/better than the average ebiker .

 

[Bullfrog]

Just saw this "you can run it at roughly 40% higher sustained torque and power without overheating."

It is from this: https://ebikes.ca/product-info/grin-products/statorade.html

 

[The Toecutter]

Thanks.

So 1.5 kW continuous @ 48V, probably equates to close to 3 kW @ 96V. Add an extra 40% and I get 4.2 kW. That's enough continuous power to hold 100 mph in such a setup. Then I'll have a hubsink on it. Because the rear wheel will be surrounded by storage space, getting a NACA duct to cool it won't be a simple affair, but at high speeds, it should be getting plenty of cooling air to dissipate heat just from the airflow at the bottom of the vehicle, especially thanks to the hubsink. A thermistor plugged to the CA3 is going to be there for insurance purposes.

This system I have in mind might end up being very well balanced and reliable. I'll have a very interesting "bicycle" to ride around in unlicensed, unregistered, and uninsured.

Just saw this "you can run it at roughly 40% higher sustained torque and power without overheating."

It is from this: https://ebikes.ca/product-info/grin-products/statorade.html

 

[ebike4healthandfitness]

Another run using the RH212 with the Kv set to 20, 96v battery, 26" wheel, and Full Recumbent drag. Assuming your battery and controller that can supply the amperage, I'd say you are going to have a very difficult time getting over ~80 mph.

On the contrary:

https://ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.h...rame=cust_0.06_0.007&mass=120&hp=200&axis=mph

93 mph, using a 27S5P pack of Panasonic NCR21700s(3.7Vnom, 5AH, 0.00014Ohm), with a 75A battery current limit, 250A phase current limit, 200W of pedaling, assuming 0.06 m^2 CdA, 0.007 Crr, with a 260 lb laden weight, with a Leafbike 1500W 3T wind(17.48 kV) in a 20" drive wheel using a Mitas MC2 16x2.25" tire. I'm designing my new shell off of my Milan SL velomobile, which has a CdA value of about 0.03 m^2, and I'm assuming my concessions to practicality(more ground clearance, easier to access mechanical bits, wider front track for improved cornering/lateral Gs, ect) and larger frontal area will double its drag. This is only 7 kW peak, 3.3kW of which are needed to maintain top speed according to my simulation linked above. I'm seriously planning on going to 10 kW peak with a larger pack or maybe running the cells @ 20A peak if I implement thermal management, and perhaps even going to a 108V nominal pack if the appropriate controller for that comes out next year. Heat buildup may not be a big issue even @ 20A per cell because I'll be at top speed in about 20 seconds from a stop.

Here's a simulation @ 108Vnom with a 30S5P pack of Panasonic NCR21700s with a 15A per cell limit:

https://ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.h..._0.06_0.007&mass=120&hp=200&axis=mph&kv=17.48

101 mph. 4.3kW required.

Things get retarded if I go to the 130V the PowerVelocity controllers are capable of:

https://ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.h..._0.06_0.007&mass=120&hp=200&axis=mph&kv=17.48

118 mph. 6.8kW required.

The best part is that with the motor shut off and nothing to kill its cogging losses(dead battery) this thing will be able to be pedaled to 25+ mph cruising speed on flat ground with 150W, 30 mph with 225W, and maybe reach 45+ mph in a 500W sprint. So range anxiety won't exist. Of course, being able to do 60+ miles @ 90+ mph would be nice too, but not sure the motor could handle that even with the cooling mods. 3-4kW wouldn't be too hard on it though for a few minutes at a time, so a little bit of high-speed jackassery on the highway would be quite viable. She's going to be adorned in an anarchy sign livery with a post apocalyptic rust-colored paintjob to match.

This simulator was quite accurate calculating my current iteration's top speed. It does about 45-47 mph real world with hard full-effort pedaling depending upon state of charge. Here's what the simulator says:

https://ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.h...t_0.2_0.007&mass=120&hp=600&axis=mph&kv=13.11

It currently has a CdA of 0.20 m^2 measured from coast-down testing using the RChung method, 46.8V 31AH pack of Greenway LiIon cells, with a Leafbike 4T 1500W in a 26" drive wheel. I also ran the trike with a throttle hooked up on a flat-ish road to see what its wattage consumption with zero pedaling was, and I was consistently getting about 400W @ 30 mph, which is also in-line with the simulator. I get a 150+ mile range, real world, cruising 30-35 mph, with moderate pedaling effort.

So, I think if I pull the next body shell off correctly, I will get results similar to what I've simulated in the links towards the top of this post. And if I do, it will be quite a fun machine to wander around in.

The big difference is I used "Full Recumbent" for the Drag Coefficient" and "0" input from the person on the bike. The difference in speeds from my runs to yours show how much drag can affect top speed :wink: .

I was suggesting you could use the RH212 to get a reasonable approximation of the core temperatures...as well as the top speeds when the correct drag is used, which I obviously didn't do. I did have to increase the Kv for the RH212 to get the top speeds to match and after I did the "Battery Amps" matched pretty close as well, therefore I would expect the temps to match fairly closely.

I don't know how much having the motor somewhat enclosed is going to affect temperatures but obviously they would be higher without air flow...using the RH212 with and without Statorade should give you a feel for how much it will help. With a thermistor you could measure it "real time" and would be something I would do since the conditions inside a velo will be fairly different than an open bike. All stuff you already know...just outlining it in case there is someone with less experience that wants to do something similar :thumb: .

If your temps get too high, you could always use a NACA duct on the side or sides of your velo to bring in air without increasing drag considerably.

Please keep us updated on how things go...I am following because I find it very interesting and I think you understand what is going on more/better than the average ebiker .

With the ebike.ca version of RH212 being more feature rich than the leaf bike 1500 and substantially cheaper than the leaf bike 1500 after shipping is factored what reason is left in 2021 to buy the leaf bike 1500 hub motor?

Higher Kv?