Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

[E-HP]

If it's pretty different, you may need to play wiht the Beta coefficient / value and offset in the CA settings to match yours, which might not take long if you use a "half / double" approach. (halve the value and see if you're closer or farther by a lot; if it's the wrong direction then double it instead. If you're closer, halve or double again, and so on, until you get within what you consider close enough, at room temperature and a "hot" temperature of your choosing. )

It's a lot easier than opening up the motor.

I'd be OK if there's a display of any kind that could read and display the temperature, but having it work with the CA would be great. Unfortunately, when I measured it earlier, it was 600 ohms at room temp. I see a few on ebay with a coefficient of 3950, so right in the middle of the range that the CA accepts, so I'll order one or two of those. Didn't want to open the motor, but I figure I might as well take care of that and the Statorade before mounting it on the bike.

 

[ZeroEm]

Don't know of any that don't come with out the thermistor. They are 100kohm and will need to be changed. At least the wire is run thru the Axel.

by E-HP » Nov 27 2021 12:26pm

Quick question: Are the motors currently being shipped with a thermistor in the stock configuration? I noticed mine arrived with a sixth (white) wire in the wire harness/Molex connector. I searched the thread, and it looks like it was an option in the past.

EDIT: Seems like regardless, it looks like I need to replace the thermistor anyway to work with my CA, so it looks like I have a few things to do before mounting the motor, like opening it up, replacing the thermistor, and adding Statorade at the same time. I may also replace the phase wires outside and up to the motor, but too lazy to run them all the way into the hub.

 

[E-HP]

Don't know of any that don't come with out the thermistor. They are 100kohm and will need to be changed. At least the wire is run thru the Axel.

:thumb:
I ordered a couple. Most seemed to go to 105C, but a few go to 125C, so I got a couple of those.

 

[ZeroEm]

When I order from Grin, sometimes have them throw in a few bits as shipping is so high. Over the years have a couple of wires with the 10K NTC Thermistor connected and a Bare 10K NTC Thermistor. Don't think they sell the ones connected to the wires any more but the Bare 10K NTC is only $3 but shipping is crazy. I have all kinds of extra stuff over the years. Need to organize it all.

Still need to put the Bare thermistor in the 7T motor.

 

[amberwolf]

I'd be OK if there's a display of any kind that could read and display the temperature, but having it work with the CA would be great. Unfortunately, when I measured it earlier, it was 600 ohms at room temp.

Does it read the same regardless of meter polarity (red lead on white or red on black wire)?

If it doesn't, and is much higher the other way, it may be an LM35 (I think), the digital temperature sensor that outputs a voltage, and is powered like teh halls are. I think there is something around here on using one of those with the CA, but I coudln't find it in 30 seconds. :/

 

[ZeroEm]

30 seconds, :lol:

 

[E-HP]

Does it read the same regardless of meter polarity (red lead on white or red on black wire)?

unfortunately the same for both cases

 

[E-HP]

I'm 90% decided that I'm going to relace my motor into a 24" rim. Just playing with various motors and settings on the motor simulator, I think the combo, with Statorade, will allow me to climb 10% until the battery is depleted without melting, if I throttle down to 20-ish mph.

After taking measurements, then verifying against this thread, here is what came up with:
Flange diameter - 232mm
Flange width - 35.5mm

I noticed the two spare spokes that came with the motor measured 159mm and 159.5 mm, although I can't see a difference when measuring the installed spokes, so not sure if they should be the same. Reading this thread, it looks like folks are using the same lengths for left or right.

I will use the Sapim strong 14/13 spokes
This is the rim I'm planning to use:
https://halo-usa.com/products/halo-sas-24-disc-rim?variant=39491908763719

Any help verifying the measurements above, any comments or tips on components (spokes, nipples, washers, etc.), or whether the spoke lengths should be the same of different would be much appreciated before I start order spokes. Also, I'm wondering whether to order online or go to my LBS. If I would have thought about it earlier, I would have ordered the spokes from Grin with the other stuff to save on shipping.

Since this rim is better that the crappy one on my 1000W motor, I'll reuse it on that motor so it doesn't go to waste.

 

[Bullfrog]

I'm 90% decided that I'm going to relace my motor into a 24" rim. Just playing with various motors and settings on the motor simulator, I think the combo, with Statorade, will allow me to climb 10% until the battery is depleted without melting, if I throttle down to 20-ish mph.

After taking measurements, then verifying against this thread, here is what came up with:
Flange diameter - 232mm
Flange width - 35.5mm

I noticed the two spare spokes that came with the motor measured 159mm and 159.5 mm, although I can't see a difference when measuring the installed spokes, so not sure if they should be the same. Reading this thread, it looks like folks are using the same lengths for left or right.

I will use the Sapim strong 14/13 spokes
This is the rim I'm planning to use:
https://halo-usa.com/products/halo-sas-24-disc-rim?variant=39491908763719

Any help verifying the measurements above, any comments or tips on components (spokes, nipples, washers, etc.), or whether the spoke lengths should be the same of different would be much appreciated before I start order spokes. Also, I'm wondering whether to order online or go to my LBS. If I would have thought about it earlier, I would have ordered the spokes from Grin with the other stuff to save on shipping.

Since this rim is better that the crappy one on my 1000W motor, I'll reuse it on that motor so it doesn't go to waste.

If everything is perfectly symmetrical the spokes should be the same length...quite often they are different. There are several good spoke length calculators online including the one on the Grin Tech web site.

If you let your LBS do it, I'd let them decide what length spokes are needed and let them buy them...that way you are off the hook if anything doesn't work.

I understand why you want to use the 24" rim BUT it will severely limit your tire choices. Make sure the tire you want to run is available before you buy anything else. I went with a 26" rim just so I'd have more tire options.

 

[E-HP]

If everything is perfectly symmetrical the spokes should be the same length...quite often they are different. There are several good spoke length calculators online including the one on the Grin Tech web site.

If you let your LBS do it, I'd let them decide what length spokes are needed and let them buy them...that way you are off the hook if anything doesn't work.

I understand why you want to use the 24" rim BUT it will severely limit your tire choices. Make sure the tire you want to run is available before you buy anything else. I went with a 26" rim just so I'd have more tire options.

I'm going to build it myself, so if I screw up I'll chalk that up to education. The options are slim for offroad tires in 24x3, but a lot more for street. For offroad, I could always go with a 2.4 to match the front width, in something like a Maxxis Minion, but a 24x3 would be ideal. This seems like one of the only options for 3" knobbies:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/265382185682?hash=item3dca02cad2:g:whsAAOSwaXthfAAa

 

[99t4]

... or whether the spoke lengths should be the same of different ...

Only thing that comes to mind is possible compensation for dish but .5mm difference seems more like sloppy production line tolerances than purposeful calculation/cut to deal with wheel dish.

 

[thundercamel]

I'm 90% decided that I'm going to relace my motor into a 24" rim.

I remember you chose default options when ordering, but did you spin it up unloaded with a meter on the battery and a tachometer on the motor? Just to verify the KV.
This is what I have.

 

[ZeroEm]

I just used My CA, it counts rpm's.

 

[E-HP]

I'm 90% decided that I'm going to relace my motor into a 24" rim.

I remember you chose default options when ordering, but did you spin it up unloaded with a meter on the battery and a tachometer on the motor? Just to verify the KV.
This is what I have.

Brilliant. I have a spare controller and battery, so I can mount it on my bench vise and get the speed from the display. I think in either case, 24" will give me more than enough speed, but the improved climbing without ever having to worry about overheating would be ideal. If it can do 10-12% continuous, then I'm guessing the occasional 20% hill, keeping it to under a mile, shouldn't be an issue.

 

[E-HP]

Just to understand my confusion around the "default" winding for the 1500W Leaf, here are the configurations that I considered, all with different "default" speeds (and I assumed, windings); all have 26" wheels as the default, but any clue if the windings are different?

Maybe the defaut??

26 inch 48V / 52V 1500W rear electric bike motor wheel
"Max speed: 72.9 kmh -- 45.2 mph"
https://www.leafbike.com/products/e-bike-hub-motor/gearless-20-24-26-700c-28-29-inch/991.html

Or maybe this one, but it doesn't say "electric"
And the one that I got:

26 inch 48V / 52V 1500W rear bike motor wheel
"Max speed: 60.5 kmh -- 37.5 mph Default (Optional other speed: 60mph,42mph,30mph or 25mph...please leave message)"
https://www.leafbike.com/products/e-bike-hub-motor/gearless-20-24-26-700c-28-29-inch/1204.html

Probably not this one.
Wide rim version, for 2.8" to 3.0" tires.

Wide rim 26 inch 48V / 52V 1500W rear hub motor wheel
"Max speed: 62.1 kmh -- 38.5 mph Default (Optional other speed: 60mph,42mph,30mph or 25mph...please leave message)"

https://www.leafbike.com/products/e-bike-hub-motor/gearless-20-24-26-700c-28-29-inch/wide-rim-26-inch-48v-52v-1500w-rear-hub-motor-wheel-1112.html

That's 584, 485. and 498 RPM, repectively, at 48/52V, or whatever they use.

 

[The Toecutter]

Of the three windings, in order,

-the first is a 4T winding.
-the second and third are 5T windings.

This is assuming they don't have any typographical errors. My understanding is that the default winding is supposed to always be 5T.

When you order your motor, specify the winding you want to assure you get what you want.

My 4T winding consistently allows me to reach ~46-47 mph on a fully charged 46.8V nominal pack, with the speed dropping as the voltage decreases. Voltage, and not power, is limiting my top speed, as I get the same top speed on flat ground regardless of whether I set the maximum assist at 750W or 2500W. The latter accelerates much more rapidly and can climb moderate gradients at top speed, however. I have aerodynamics going in my favor though. An upright bicycle is going to need a lot more power to attain the same speed. I can unplug the controller and pedal it to 35 mph on flat ground in a sprint, cogging losses included in the resistance, so do keep in mind that when I use my motor, at top speed of 45+ mph, I'm only drawing ~700W from the battery and pedaling extremely hard to maintain that top speed. A normal upright bike will be at least a few mph slower due to added wind resistance.

 

[E-HP]

Of the three windings, in order,

-the first is a 4T winding.
-the second and third are 5T windings.

This is assuming they don't have any typographical errors. My understanding is that the default winding is supposed to always be 5T.

Thanks for solving that mystery. I definitely don't need the 4T speed or even the 5T, so a 24" wheel makes sense for my needs. Better climbing and a little better acceleration. Mid range torque is a good trade off for losing a little speed for my riding.

 

[ZeroEm]

Here is from my notes years ago!

Unloaded:
16 * 4T 650RPM 13.54
13 * 5T 550RPM 11.45
11 * 6T 450RPM 09.37
09 * 7T 350RPM 07.29 rpm V Loaded 6.33 Kv - 397.4 rpm
08 * 8T 250RPM 05.208
07 * 9T 150RPM 03.125

Chalo had put up a better one. Think his was more accurate. Can not find it at the moment.

The one with loaded data is the one on my trike. It rides at 33 mph in a 26" wheel @ 72V battery. Wanted to mount a 7T in a 29" wheel on a upright bike with a 48V battery and stay in the low 20 mph. Things change.

Have an 5T edge motor, leafmotor upgrade. Going to put it in a 24" wheel. The 24" wheel give a little more torque but not much. The 20" is much better. I can not go that little. The other trick it to get a higher winding and up the voltage.

I'm wanting to get a 6T think is has a better copper fill than some of the others. Run it in a 24" wheel and run the Voltage in 60's, maybe 18s or 16s.

To figure it all out just use grin's Simulator, they have a 5T in there and you can change Kv in the motor and wheel size. Should remove some of the guessing.

 

[Chalo]

Chalo had put up a better one. Think his was more accurate. Can not find it at the moment.

From sales@leafbike.com, as of early 2020:

1500w No-load at 48V for the 8 turn x 8 – about 293rpm
1500w No-load at 48V for the 9 turn x 7 – about 355rpm
1500w No-load at 48V for the 11 turn x 6 – about 418rpm

 

[neptronix]

Have an 5T edge motor, leafmotor upgrade. Going to put it in a 24" wheel. The 24" wheel give a little more torque but not much. The 20" is much better. I can not go that little. The other trick it to get a higher winding and up the voltage.

A 24" wheel is a better choice generally if you're going to efficiency in a 9C style design motor due to the numbers of poles and the eddy losses that creates ( this is a 24-26" wheel centric motor design if i've ever seen one. )

A leaf in a 20" on >10kw with some decent cooling would give you something like a half-power Luke deathbike. But do you really need that?

My preference is a 22" BMX rim with a 18" motorcycle tire on it, giving you about 23". Now you have the traction to unleash the power..

To figure it all out just use grin's Simulator, they have a 5T in there and you can change Kv in the motor and wheel size. Should remove some of the guessing.

Yup.

There's also a 9C or MXUS 30mm motor that's a pretty good model of the leaf 30mm; probably off by a few percent. But very very similar motor design, so maybe expect the leaf to be a hair better.

 

[E-HP]

A leaf in a 20" on >10kw with some decent cooling would give you something like a half-power Luke deathbike. But do you really need that?

Is that just venting, or forced air using fans?

I don't ride in the rain, at least by choice, so I wonder if I should vent the side covers while I have the motor apart. Any downsides?

 

[The Toecutter]

A leaf in a 20" on >10kw with some decent cooling would give you something like a half-power Luke deathbike. But do you really need that?

Yes. At least if I want to have a vehicle that at its core is human powered and is functional as such with the motor disabled, but able to out-accelerate cars at stoplight drag races when the motor is enabled, and set up in such a way that pedaling adds thrust at all possible operating points, whether pedaling is powering it 100% with the motor shut off at velomobile-like cruising speeds, 50% doing 30 mph on flat ground, 20% doing 60 mph on the highway, or 3% careening down the highway at 110 mph.

In fact, ideally I'd like more power and to get it all of the way to being a Luke deathbike in velomobile form, using smaller, 98%+ efficient motors with no cogging losses in each wheel with all wheel drive and a seperate FOC controller running each motor with slip detection. Say, a 3lb motor in each front wheel and a 7lb motor in the rear based on AMZ's design. But the Leafbike is the next best thing at the moment, even if it's a far cry from that, and I'll take what I can get.

I really like this motor thus far. At 2500W, I've already done donuts in parking lots. It's quite fun. 10 kW is eventually going to be my reality with the 3T 1500W and BAC4000 in my possession. I'm going to need a hydraulic brakes and a roll cage. I've studied the Australian Pedal Prix vehicles quite extensively as well as the Electrathon Race Cars to guide my next design iteration.

It's also always a hoot to turn the motor off and take it onto the bike trails to mess with lycra fetishists. The only time they stand a chance is on hill climbs. They almost always out-accelerate me in a dedicated race, but I almost always catch up to and overtake them. Once I pass them, they can't catch me unless I have to stop. Trying to ride this with the motor turned off is not for weight weenies, and even though I'm only about 145 lbs at the moment, my legs are getting very thick. There's a 20% gradient near where I live that I regularly climb with the motor shut off for training purposes, while loaded down with all my tools/parts/food/water, thus the 26T/34T gearing I have is the absolute tallest ratio I can have for my granny gear. This motor is not as drag-inducing as I feared it would be before buying it, even if it greatly slows my acceleration rate when pedaling it without electric assist vs no motor. Hopefully the 20" wheel is not a major increase in cogging torque over the 26" I'm currently using.

 

[ZeroEm]

The data shows the biggest return is FF (FeroFluid). It does most of the cooling. You could open the motor up with vents, you let all in. FF needs to topped off when low. The min in this motor is 4.5 ml some put a lot more. That causes drag, I run 5 ml and it needs to be refilled, don't run my motor hot so don't know how low it is. You can go farther and add heat sinks with FF it only helps in the extreme if you are really heating up the motor.

May look into a 22" wheel, think they may work out great on the front of a trike. Then there is the lacing again, big DD and small rim.

by E-HP » Dec 02 2021 9:29pm

neptronix wrote: ↑Dec 02 2021 3:36pm

A leaf in a 20" on >10kw with some decent cooling would give you something like a half-power Luke deathbike. But do you really need that?

Is that just venting, or forced air using fans?

I don't ride in the rain, at least by choice, so I wonder if I should vent the side covers while I have the motor apart. Any downsides?

 

[E-HP]

The data shows the biggest return is FF (FeroFluid). It does most of the cooling. You could open the motor up with vents, you let all in. FF needs to topped off when low. The min in this motor is 4.5 ml some put a lot more. That causes drag, I run 5 ml and it needs to be refilled, don't run my motor hot so don't know how low it is. You can go farther and add heat sinks with FF it only helps in the extreme if you are really heating up the motor.

May look into a 22" wheel, think they may work out great on the front of a trike. Then there is the lacing again, big DD and small rim.

by E-HP » Dec 02 2021 9:29pm

neptronix wrote: ↑Dec 02 2021 3:36pm

A leaf in a 20" on >10kw with some decent cooling would give you something like a half-power Luke deathbike. But do you really need that?

Is that just venting, or forced air using fans?

I don't ride in the rain, at least by choice, so I wonder if I should vent the side covers while I have the motor apart. Any downsides?

Ya, the Statorade definitely makes the biggest difference. I notice when comparing the MXUS 3K with Statorade, with and without hub sinks and there was a decent improvement, which got me thinking about some sort of heat sinking solution. The difference is, a smaller wheel helps to avoid generating heat, while Statorade and heat sinking deal with the heat after the fact, so by default, the smaller wheel is more efficient.
https://ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.html?motor=MX3006_SA&batt=cust_80_0.05_24&cont=cust_70_200_0.03_V&hp=0&axis=mph&frame=mountain&autothrot=true&throt=46.6&grade=12&cont_b=cust_70_200_0.03_V&motor_b=MX3006_Sinks&batt_b=cust_80_0.05_24&hp_b=0&bopen=true&wheel_b=24i&grade_b=12&autothrot_b=true&throt_b=47.8

 

[Bullfrog]

Not sure how or if Statorade would affect a Leaf motor but some motors have problems when using Statorade and it may depend on who makes the Statorade and what "carrier" fluid they use.

Automatic Transmission Fluid is very inert and shouldn't cause a problem plus the cost is a LOT lower .

I have not used Statorade but low viscosity ATF has worked well for me in a couple different motors.