GGoodrum
1 MW
I agree, Doc, they really are 52.8V, not 48V, but many are confused by the numbers because so many of tnhese go into 48V SLA setups. The label on the pack says 52V/10Ah.
LifeBatt cells now available for ebike use
- Thread starter bobmcree
- Start date
Nice! It looks like I could fit two of those in my Vego scooter. That would give me about 3 times more range and about half the weight as my lead bricks.
GGoodrum
1 MW
While getting regular clear shrink wrap is not a problem, it is way too thin to provide any sort of shock protection. This rubberized stuff ends up being about 1/16" thick.
As for the voltage "naming convention" issue, the problem is that most everything is based on "standard" SLA setups, which are usually multiples of 12V. SLA cells/packs have much higher voltage drops under load than Lithium-based cells/packs with the same ratings/capacity, so the "nominal" voltage rating for SLA cells is lower. Typically, an SLA cell will get charged to about 2.40V-2.45V per cell, but the rated nominal voltage is only 2.0V per cell. For a typical 36V SLA setup, the chargers will use a CC/CV crossover voltage around 43.5-44V. for a 48V SLA setup, the chargers usually are set to crossover at around 58-59V. All LiFePO4 cells, including the LiFeBatts, have optimum CC/CV charging profiles with a crossover at around 3.65-3.70V per cell. It conveniently works out that for charging purposes, four LiFePO4 cells is about the same as six SLA cells. A 12-cell LiFePO4-based pack would have an optimum CC/CV crossover point of 43.8V (12 x 3.65V), and for a 16-cell pack, the optimum is 58.4V (16 x 3.65V). This is why these are used as "drop-ins" for 36V and 48V SLA setups. Fresh off the charger, a 36V SLA setup can be close to 44V, so the motor/controller combos need to be able to handle that. Same thing with 48V setups, the controller needs to be able to handle at least 58-59V.
The difference is that under load, Lithium-based cells don't have the same sort of big voltage drops, so their nominal voltages are higher, per cell. For LiFePO4 cells, most are rated at 3.3V per cell. This means a 12-cell pack has a nominal voltage of 40V, and for a 16-cell pack the nominal voltage is 52.8V. Since the controllers need to be able to handle SLAs right off the charger, you get a pretty good sized performance boost with Lithium-based "equivalent" packs, simply because the voltage stays up higher under load.
This is all too much for many to get their heads around, so most pack suppliers just use the 36V and 48V nomenclatures for 12-cell and 16-cell LiFePO4-based packs.
-- Gary
As for the voltage "naming convention" issue, the problem is that most everything is based on "standard" SLA setups, which are usually multiples of 12V. SLA cells/packs have much higher voltage drops under load than Lithium-based cells/packs with the same ratings/capacity, so the "nominal" voltage rating for SLA cells is lower. Typically, an SLA cell will get charged to about 2.40V-2.45V per cell, but the rated nominal voltage is only 2.0V per cell. For a typical 36V SLA setup, the chargers will use a CC/CV crossover voltage around 43.5-44V. for a 48V SLA setup, the chargers usually are set to crossover at around 58-59V. All LiFePO4 cells, including the LiFeBatts, have optimum CC/CV charging profiles with a crossover at around 3.65-3.70V per cell. It conveniently works out that for charging purposes, four LiFePO4 cells is about the same as six SLA cells. A 12-cell LiFePO4-based pack would have an optimum CC/CV crossover point of 43.8V (12 x 3.65V), and for a 16-cell pack, the optimum is 58.4V (16 x 3.65V). This is why these are used as "drop-ins" for 36V and 48V SLA setups. Fresh off the charger, a 36V SLA setup can be close to 44V, so the motor/controller combos need to be able to handle that. Same thing with 48V setups, the controller needs to be able to handle at least 58-59V.
The difference is that under load, Lithium-based cells don't have the same sort of big voltage drops, so their nominal voltages are higher, per cell. For LiFePO4 cells, most are rated at 3.3V per cell. This means a 12-cell pack has a nominal voltage of 40V, and for a 16-cell pack the nominal voltage is 52.8V. Since the controllers need to be able to handle SLAs right off the charger, you get a pretty good sized performance boost with Lithium-based "equivalent" packs, simply because the voltage stays up higher under load.
This is all too much for many to get their heads around, so most pack suppliers just use the 36V and 48V nomenclatures for 12-cell and 16-cell LiFePO4-based packs.
-- Gary
Gary is exactly right! That's the way mfg. label their packs and LiFeBATT is the same also. Since no battery mfg. that I know of also makes Controllers (yet....wink) they don't want to confuse the buying public, so the convention has stuck.
Still, wish they made a clear rubberized shrink because it would "clearly" show the inner beauty of these packs that Bob & Gary are producing!
Best,
Don Harmon
Still, wish they made a clear rubberized shrink because it would "clearly" show the inner beauty of these packs that Bob & Gary are producing!
Best,
Don Harmon
Creative use of lexan / polycarb might be an option ! :wink:
recumbent
100 kW
Don Harmon said:
Yep, those batteries look great, waiting patiently for my shipment. 8)
edit: for date change
Deepkimchi
1 kW
GGoodrum
1 MW
The price of a 12-cell pack 40V/10Ah pack, with the latest LVC with active cutoff is $585, plus shipping. The 16-cell version, with the same active cutoff LVC is $750. Both come with full two-year warranties.
I'm sure we can make your "Flintstone" individual charger setup work, either with an adapter plug, or just by using a matching connector from the LVC board instead of the Molex-type plug that is normally used. If you see a part number on the connector, that would help. Otherwise maype take a picture of it head-on, and measure the diameter. We would also need to know how it is wired. That should be easy enough to figure out.
The CMS prototype is working well. Each cell is allowed to reach a full 100% charge, independent of the rest of the cells, and can do so at much higher charge rates than with typical "Duct Tape"-type charging solutions, which usually only charge at a 2A rate, and then you need up to 10 hours to let the balancer circuits pull down the high cells to the level of the lowest. Even the individual Voltphreak CC/CV chargers, which work great, are only 2A. The CMS will handle up to 8A, which means you will be able to fully charge a depleted pack in well under two hours and have each cell completely full.
I'm doing the production CMS board layout today. I should have them by the first of the week. Parts are already on the way. We just have some final packaging issues to sort out. I'm hoping that these will be ready-to-go by the end of next week. I'm not sure on the pricing yet, but my hope is to keep the standalone price as close to $50 as I can.
Although the CMS is being designed to work with many existing SLA-type charger setups, The most common ones out there only go to 3-4A. Going up from that point, current-wise starts to get quite expensive. I have Zivan NG1 48V charger that will do 15A, to the 80% level, and then switches to 6A, but it is $500.
There just isn't anything affordable out there that can do more than 3-4A so we asked the LiFeBatt factory in Taiwan to do two suitable chargers for us, based on what they are doing for the larger EV market. What they came up with is one for 12-cells that has a cutoff of 45V and outputs 8A, and a 7A version for 16-cells with a cutoff of 60V. The complete specs are here:
I'm not sure on pricing yet, but the 12-cell version should be around $175-$200 and about $225-$250 for the 16-cell model. The better deal will be in combiation with a CMS.
Also available separately will be the new LVC boards, with active cutoff, both in 12-cell and 16-cell versions.
-- Gary
I'm sure we can make your "Flintstone" individual charger setup work, either with an adapter plug, or just by using a matching connector from the LVC board instead of the Molex-type plug that is normally used. If you see a part number on the connector, that would help. Otherwise maype take a picture of it head-on, and measure the diameter. We would also need to know how it is wired. That should be easy enough to figure out.
The CMS prototype is working well. Each cell is allowed to reach a full 100% charge, independent of the rest of the cells, and can do so at much higher charge rates than with typical "Duct Tape"-type charging solutions, which usually only charge at a 2A rate, and then you need up to 10 hours to let the balancer circuits pull down the high cells to the level of the lowest. Even the individual Voltphreak CC/CV chargers, which work great, are only 2A. The CMS will handle up to 8A, which means you will be able to fully charge a depleted pack in well under two hours and have each cell completely full.
I'm doing the production CMS board layout today. I should have them by the first of the week. Parts are already on the way. We just have some final packaging issues to sort out. I'm hoping that these will be ready-to-go by the end of next week. I'm not sure on the pricing yet, but my hope is to keep the standalone price as close to $50 as I can.
Although the CMS is being designed to work with many existing SLA-type charger setups, The most common ones out there only go to 3-4A. Going up from that point, current-wise starts to get quite expensive. I have Zivan NG1 48V charger that will do 15A, to the 80% level, and then switches to 6A, but it is $500.
There just isn't anything affordable out there that can do more than 3-4A so we asked the LiFeBatt factory in Taiwan to do two suitable chargers for us, based on what they are doing for the larger EV market. What they came up with is one for 12-cells that has a cutoff of 45V and outputs 8A, and a 7A version for 16-cells with a cutoff of 60V. The complete specs are here:
I'm not sure on pricing yet, but the 12-cell version should be around $175-$200 and about $225-$250 for the 16-cell model. The better deal will be in combiation with a CMS.
Also available separately will be the new LVC boards, with active cutoff, both in 12-cell and 16-cell versions.
-- Gary
disndat
100 W
Hey Gary please forgive this dumb question,but does this mean that I can use the same charger that I have for my nicad/nimh packs for the lifebatt batteries?I have the 36 volt one from ebikes.
Thanks
Chris
Thanks
Chris
magudaman
10 kW
With your CMS can users buy that unit separate? You could always point people to the 50v 20a power supplies people in the RC arena are using to charge up to 13s packs at 20 amps. It's less than $300 too:
https://www.tanicpacks.com/product_info.php?products_id=712&osCsid=19ebe3214cb132315a13a05745452b9e
https://www.tanicpacks.com/product_info.php?products_id=712&osCsid=19ebe3214cb132315a13a05745452b9e
GGoodrum
1 MW
disndat said:
No, the charging scheme for NiCd/NiMH cells is totally different.
GGoodrum
1 MW
magudaman said:
Yes, the CMS will be available separately. You can use it with any CC/CV-type charger or regulated power supply, as long as it has the right voltage.
The Mastech 5020 will be fine for 12-cell packs, but you need more volltage for a 16-cell pack. I have an HP 0-60V 0-15A supply, which I will use with both 12-cell and 16-cell packs.
-- Gary
kbarrett
10 kW
Gary:
Exactly what Molex connector will I need to attach it to a 12 pack/"36V" battery?
What number of pins, pinout, and is the battery side male or female?
Exactly what Molex connector will I need to attach it to a 12 pack/"36V" battery?
What number of pins, pinout, and is the battery side male or female?
GGoodrum
1 MW
kbarrett said:
I will post this as soon as we get the CMS done, as the pinout might change.
-- Gary
kbarrett
10 kW
OK ... I'll just tape off the ends BMS/CMS leads for each 3.3V six cell battery in the pack and leave them alone for now.GGoodrum said:
Deepkimchi
1 kW
Joey
100 W
When will the complete LifeBatt with BMS/CMS packs be available? There has been a lot of forum talk about the circuitry lately but nothing has been said recently about the availability of the complete packs.
-- Joey
-- Joey
GGoodrum
1 MW
Joey said:
The packs are ready-to-go just as soon as we get the BMS done, which is very close, only days now. I'm sorry for the delay, but because of the BMS testing, we've made a few changes that required some layout changes. As soon as I get the new boards back, I will be ready to start offering 36V and 48V packs, with the integrated BMS and a two-year warranty. I will also offer special versions of the excellent Soneil SRF series of 4-4.5A 36V and 48V chargers that will be able to be purchased with the packs.
-- Gary
recumbent
100 kW
You can count me in for at least one 48volt pack for sure. I was speaking with Josh Goldberg in Toronto area and he is hoping to get them in a couple weeks.
My recumbent project is almost finished and I'm going to use Lifebatt for the power source.
My recumbent project is almost finished and I'm going to use Lifebatt for the power source.
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