Mac10t verses HS3540 on 1600 watts

[waynebergman]

Thought I would share my opinions on the two different motors I have been running on my 2004 Giant DH.

The bike is fairly heavy at 85 lbs with the HS3540 and it weighs around 80 lbs with the Mac 10t. So around 220 lbs for bike and rider. I am running an Infineon 35 amp controller with two Samsung 48v 10ah Lith Mang batteries. Running the batteries in parallel so 48v 20 ah. Controller is sending around 1600 watts to motor with the present set up. My pin outs for hall and phase wires are set up so I can just swap out the wheel and plug in and go for easy changes between the two motors.

After having my Mac 10t up and running now for the last week I have been able to ride some of the same stretches of road and sections of trail to compare performance and AMP HOURS used for each section of testing. I have been using the same bike sets up except for swapping out my wheel sets. I have an HS3540 laced up to a 24 wheel set and my new Mac 10t laced up to the same 24" rim diameter with the same tire mounted on both.

Top speed on the HS3540 on the flats with no pedal assist around 31mph and on the mac around 26. I am running wide 24" tires so the circumference is 2003mm so a bit larger diam than a narrower 24" tire I think.

Torque for climbing hills is no contest. The little Mac 10t seems to be in its happy zone the whole range from 0 to 26 MPH. This little motor works really nice for hill climbing. The HS3540 is a big disappointment for climbing hills unless you can help it up to speed with pedal assist (at least with my low wattage) which means if the hill slows you down to less than 15 MPH the motor is not happy and you can hear it labouring. You have to pedal very hard on the steep stuff or get off and walk. So this HS3540 seems to be a good motor BUT with my 1600 watts and wanting to ride up trails and not just down them I have found the HS3540 to really bog down and sound unhappy at slow speeds climbing medium to steeper trails. Straight out pavement riding its fine and its cool to cruise along the country roads by my place at 30MPH.

The real nice things for me on the Mac 10t are………..
1. Lighter in weight
2. Smaller diam hub flanges which I think make for a stronger wheel and easier to lace up.
3. It coasts like a dream. Unlike the HS3540 which seems to have a huge amount of drag when coasting.
4. It seems pretty efficient for the riding I do. I realize the DD HS3540 would be more efficient if it was in its happy zone more but seeing as I ride a few hills I am finding much better AH per kilometer on the MAC 10t. (stats below)
5. It has some real good torque or good enough for me considering I am only running 1600watts. Photos attached shows the view from a 300 or 400 foot elevation climb I did today.I used 1.5 AH to climb this hill. Pretty steep switch backs for most of the climb up. Short climb for sure but no heat at all on the motor just warm to the touch after reaching the top of this short climb. I had it pinned the whole way. This same trail on the HS3540 just forget it. You be walkin.
6. It is very quiet. It is not as quiet as the HS3540 but very close.

On my HS3540 for most of the riding I would do like rolling hills mixed in with flat section I would pretty much pin it most of the time and I would find if I rode 16 kilometres I would use 8 AH. The same stretch of county road on the MAC 10t I used 5.5 AH and of course I would be going 5 MPH slower on the MAC. Maybe the HS3540 would have the same efficiency if I went a bit slower as well but I doubt it…..also its hard to nurse the throttle to 80% of full with my controller and twist grip, its easier on my bike to just pin it. So on this ride I do often the Mac is about 40% more efficient I figure.


I realize that what I am saying about the Mac in this comparison does not mean its a better motor for you, but for me its the winner in just about every way. Why this Mac is so cool for me is it lets me ride the type of riding I mostly want to do on 1600 watts. If I want more speed and or have a need for big watts then my comparison may not be very relevant for such a high watt set up. One more disclaimer, I am new to the electric biking world so there is a lot I don't know or may be wrong about in my efforts to do this comparison but for what it is worth this is how I feel about this wonderful little motor.

 

[mvly]

This reply is not meant to be derogatory in anyway, but merely to enlighten you.

If 1600w is all you are feeding the HS3540, then is where your problem is.

First off, you should be using the HT3525 if you want hill climbing ability
Second, for direct drive to really shine, you really need to feed it a lot of power. In the case of your HS3540, you need to feed it somewhere between 3000-5000W to make it usable on hills. Just don't sustain it for too long.

I have taken my HS3548 to the hills, probably not as steep as your, but it function fine. Of course I fed it ~ 3000-3500W during some of the climb.

If 48V is all you have, then the Mac will function much better. Go > 74V with the same current on the HT3525 and you might have a change of heart. : )

 

[electr0n]

That was a nice write up. Those geared motors are better performing at that power level for sure. I had a chance to try a bmc a while back and it had very impressive acceleration at low speed compared with the crystalyte direct drive. The HS3540 is not really an ideal motor for off road riding and hill climbing to begin with. A better comparison would be with the HT version but I believe the mac would likely out perform that as well at 1600 watts, at least in the conditions you were testing in with hills and slower speeds.

It would be interesting if you could do another comparison with on road performance in a setting that doesn't favour the geared motor so much. Maybe some city riding with some stop and go and lighter grade hills. I wonder if the geared motor would still be more efficient in that situation. I suspect the peak efficiency the direct drive has is less significant than the wider efficiency curve of the geared motor in most situations.

 

[MadRhino]

The H motors shine with 24s 100A
Running it 1600 w is like feeding your car with baby oil

 

[dogman dan]

Yep, I agree the HS won't really perk up till you feed it more watts.

But I really have to say, for trail riding, the HS is also a very poor choice. While many may not like riding the extremely low speed windings I have come to love, the slower winding HT motor is a much better choice for hills. And then feed that one a few more watts too, while monitoring the motor temp of course.

To my way of thinking, the high speed windings are best used when you have long stretches of ride with few stops and only mild hills. Then they can wind up to nice top speeds and stay at those speeds where they are happy. Nice and fast at lower voltages, but you waste power every time you have to stop.

 

[nonlineartom]

Another thing worth noting, the loudness of the Mac 10T differs hugely depending on the frame

I have a 10T and on my rigid alloy frame beach cruiser it's pretty dam loud with the gear noise reverberating through the frame, people hear it coming, the same motor and wheel on the full suspension alloy framed bike, almost entirely silent. So it does depend what it's mounted on.

I agree with your findings though, I feed my Mac 10T 1600W (35A @ 44V nominal) and it flies up steep yorkshire hills and tears up trails.

 

[knoxie]

very good comparison and it mirrors what i have found over the last 6 years running both motors, 1600w is the happy power level for these geared motors, dont be tempted to push it further unless you like buying new clutches and gears. Some of the posters are slightly missing the point in that you can get better performance at lower voltages using a geared motor and you do not need to feed the motor dangerously high voltages and stopping because the motor will overheat etc etc, after owning pretty much everything short of the cro motor I still havent found a better day to day motor than a mac or bmc geared motor, sure you have to factor in gear wear but set against everything else for most they are the best option imho.

 

[nonlineartom]

very good comparison and it mirrors what i have found over the last 6 years running both motors, 1600w is the happy power level for these geared motors, dont be tempted to push it further unless you like buying new clutches and gears. Some of the posters are slightly missing the point in that you can get better performance at lower voltages using a geared motor and you do not need to feed the motor dangerously high voltages and stopping because the motor will overheat etc etc, after owning pretty much everything short of the cro motor I still havent found a better day to day motor than a mac or bmc geared motor, sure you have to factor in gear wear but set against everything else for most they are the best option imho.

seconded, I took mine apart after 1000-1500 miles of wet road riding at 1600W and it looked brand new.

Remember though, 1600W on a 10T is different to 1600W on an 8/6T (at the same voltage) you are more likely to cook the motor on a faster wind.

 

[Ariane]

Hi Waynebergman,

Thank you it's really a great reviews since the i have (2) different ebike's i will probably use a set up like this for my new "off road" bike, it's very usefull for me.

Good day!
Black Arrow

 

[BATFINK]

Nice review Wayne, I love my MAC

Sent using Endless-Sphere Mobile app

 

[Tommy L]

These comparison threads are awesome! Obviously not comparing Apples to Apples but does show that
when you build an Ebike, you build for what you need it to do.

Most wouldn't take a Ferrari off road or mud bogging, and likewise average 4 wheel drive trucks have slow 1/4 times but shine in the mud.

Build for what you do..... and some like to do it all, dirt and speed........so they have a few ebikes and grab the one that is up for the task of
terrain.

Whats cool about the Geared hub is that if you don't want to run High-Voltage and Speeds above 40kph/25mph, then it sounds like a good
all rounder.

Dogman would know better about my last statement. I'm sure the slow wind of the 9C 2810/HS3525 would be similar but a higher voltage
might be in order for them to perform alike.

I'd like to see a Side by Side with the 9C 2810 or HS3525 with that geared motor. Voltages and temperature reports too

Tommy L sends..... \\m// Rocking Onward every single day! \\m//

 

[MadRhino]

Yep, I agree the HS won't really perk up till you feed it more watts.

But I really have to say, for trail riding, the HS is also a very poor choice...

Each of us have a different terrain, and riding habits.
The HS is one of the 3 motors that I use on my Demo 8, with an HT and a 5306, and that I swap according to trail conditions.
Of course, I use the HS when the trails are ideal dry and fast, and in those conditions I found no other motors that can compare.
The brutal mid range acceleration and top speed that it gives at 100v 100a makes the bike a real beast, and it is light enough to tune my suspension to jump. Everyone who tried my trails in that configuration came back with the hairs straight on their forearms, and some did memorable crashes (including myself).

A motor can be a good or bad choice, this is about how and where one does ride. I have found that in some conditions, even the 33 pounder 5404 is a very good choice to ride the mountain trails with my V10.

Obviously, the OP is not riding fast enough and doesn't feed this motor the kind of power it needs to perform. That is OK with me, but the comparison is inappropriate.

 

[kfong]

I've been a big fan of the BMC/Mac setup for trail riding. It has been my motor of choice for single track. For those who don't want to run high power levels and like to pedal along this to me is an ideal motor. I regularly ride 20-30 miles of single track each time I hit the trails. The motor has taken all the abuse of trail riding, plenty of torque at 12S with a current limit set to 35amps. Quiet, efficient, freewheels, and light. I run the BMC v2t version with a 26" wheel. Max speed is around 23-24mph. Throttle response is excellent with the analog crystalite controller. Bike is a FS mountain bike setup for single track trail riding. Hard to improve on any of this, if single track riding is your form of entertainment as it is for me. The only last peice of equipment to make it more ideal for me is a torque sensor like the Turn, so I can do away with the hand throttle.

 

[Ariane]

C'mon Guy's

Comparing a 5 000 Watts ebike, 10 000 Watts ebike, to this 1600 watts little Mac is more a fair comparison to you really ? :lol: :lol:

Many of the most power full ebike I have seen here, has 2 000 Watts-hours battery pack even if the can get 200 Km/h on trails with those ebike your battery pack gives you a really short range. With all of the heating problems associate to it.

Black Arrow

 

[nonlineartom]

very good comparison and it mirrors what i have found over the last 6 years running both motors, 1600w is the happy power level for these geared motors, dont be tempted to push it further unless you like buying new clutches and gears. Some of the posters are slightly missing the point in that you can get better performance at lower voltages using a geared motor and you do not need to feed the motor dangerously high voltages and stopping because the motor will overheat etc etc, after owning pretty much everything short of the cro motor I still havent found a better day to day motor than a mac or bmc geared motor, sure you have to factor in gear wear but set against everything else for most they are the best option imho.

*sigh* now I need to buy another 10T mac for my full suspension build. The 5306 is like an elephant compared to the Mac. For single trail riding and jumping I think I'm going to sacrrifice tree climbing torque for a motor which is less than a third of the weight.

 

[richmpdx]

This review of the two motors is really useful to me. Thanks for including the pictures, they help get a little feeling for the kind of riding that was used to compare the two motors. As mentioned in some of the responses, everyone has different expectations and riding situations. I am interested in a moderate powered system that has adequately hill climbing ability and I don't really want a bike with particular high top end speeds. So the way the OP is using the two motors is really right on target for me. I was using a bike with 700C wheels and an Ezee geared hubmotor. It is OK but I was looking for something different. I recently completed a build with an HS3540 in a 20" wheel. With this wheel size, the HS3540 has excellent hill climbing ability, even at 1800 watts. At 1800 watts the HS3540 is close to silent, it produces very little noise. I was already thinking about trying a MAC on the bike with 20" wheels. This review has me convinced that it is definitely worth trying.
Rich

 

[Tommy L]

The HS is one of the 3 motors that I use on my Demo 8, with an HT and a 5306, and that I swap according to trail conditions.
Of course, I use the HS when the trails are ideal dry and fast, and in those conditions I found no other motors that can compare.
The brutal mid range acceleration and top speed that it gives at 100v 100a makes the bike a real beast, and it is light enough to tune my suspension to jump. Everyone who tried my trails in that configuration came back with the hairs straight on their forearms, and some did memorable crashes (including myself).

MadRhino....

What wheel size are your HS, HT and 5306 in?
and what numbers on the HS and HT?

I'm considering the HS3540.

Thank you!

Tommy L sends.... \\m// Rocking Onward every single day! \\m//

 

[MadRhino]

Yep, HS 3540, HT 3525
In 26" wheels

 

[nonlineartom]

Yep, HS 3540, HT 3525
In 26" wheels

and what voltage do you run your 5306 at? I'm having a bit of a love/hate affair with my 5306, I love its unmatched torque but it lacks top end speed (obviously) and it's a bit of a boat anchor which is noticeable on tight single track and when it's in the air

 

[pwbset]

Thx for this review! Those photos look very similar to stuff I ride here locally. I've always just tried throwing gobs of power into DDs, but I'm beginning to see the geared light. My current controller maxes out at 2.5kw anyway so I think a 12T MAC @ 75v is my ticket to e-paradise. Gotta fry my new 2810 first though.

 

[nonlineartom]

Thx for this review! Those photos look very similar to stuff I ride here locally. I've always just tried throwing gobs of power into DDs, but I'm beginning to see the geared light. My current controller maxes out at 2.5kw anyway so I think a 12T MAC @ 75v is my ticket to e-paradise. Gotta fry my new 2810 first though.

12T is going to have a low low top speed. You sure about that ?

 

[knoxie]

75V on a MAC is a bit on the high side, I would never go more than 60V and limit the power to 1.6KW with the odd burst up to 2KW at times is OK, big DD hubs are fine if your motor is rated at the power, its not fair to criticise a motor for burning it up when you are pumping 5 times it rated power through it :lol: the thing is you can get great performance with much lower power levels and not waste oodles of power in heat.

The simple rule as I see it is, if you want an electric motorbike with cycle parts then get a 5 series xlyte or a cro mo, if you want to run high power in a DD motor less than this then you must vent or oil cool the motor or accept you have to monitor temps or your riding style, you must also accept that you are running a very inefficient motor too.

If you want a powerful low voltage lightweight power assist motor that will take you up any hill without burning up, will power you along at safer speeds i.e between 20-30mph then there is only one off the shelf choice for a hub motor for me.

 

[pwbset]

12T is going to have a low low top speed. You sure about that ?

12T @ 75v should be around 26-28mph. That's plenty for me. This according to Cell Man so I trust the source. I climb 1,600ft to get to work so need hill climbing. Never done it in a geared motor. Always throwing lots of kws at DDs in the past. Works, but kinda overkill if I can do it with 1,500w.

 

[pff7]

After considering getting the HS3540---> #3 really irks me as I have not seen this before...."It(the MAC) coasts like a dream. Unlike the HS3540 which seems to have a HUGE(emphasis mine) amount of drag when coasting."

Is this the general consensus by all that have the HS3540? , as I really like coasting down hills,ect. without power(taking full advantage of kinetic enery) and don't want some kind of braking action caused by this motor.

Other than that it seems like the motor for flat land driving.

 

[MadRhino]

Yep, HS 3540, HT 3525
In 26" wheels

and what voltage do you run your 5306 at? I'm having a bit of a love/hate affair with my 5306, I love its unmatched torque but it lacks top end speed (obviously) and it's a bit of a boat anchor which is noticeable on tight single track and when it's in the air

All my bikes run 24s Lipo, and all my controllers are set 100A batt current and up.
I run the 5306 with the 18 fet 4110 at 150A batt, mostly when trails are bad or muddy.