Naming Convention for NC and other Hub Motors

justin_le

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Hey I'm wondering if I can get some 'community' input here on what you think would be the best naming scheme for the Nine Continent and other hub motors. At first, we went with similar approach as Crystalyte, magnet width followed # of turns, which is where the 2800 series came from. Unfortunately though, there was a bit of a measurement error, and the caliper read 27.5mm which we rounded up to 28mm. However, the actual magnet width is indeed exactly 27mm, so the series should be called the 2706, 2707 etc.

The rational for including the magnet width in the name, is that more or less powerful motors may be available based on wider or narrower lamination stacks, so we might have a lighter 24XX series like the golden hubs, or a bigger 32XX for more power. But, that hasn't happened yet. NC DOES have a more powerful motor with a large 273mm diameter, and it's also got 27mm magnets. Too many 27's

In the Nine Continent manufacturer name, they go with the hub diameter followed by the winding. So FH205 or RH205 for front / rear 205mm diameter motors, respectively. But then for the windings, they list both the # of turns and the parallel strand count, which is uber confusing. How do you ever get straight which is a 9x7 winding or a 7x9 winding?
Most other motor manufacturers don't even list the winding details, instead they'll have a voltage and power stamped on the side (like 36V 500W), sometimes an RPM figure too, but as we all know these are pretty meaningless values in and of themselves.

So I'm trying to think, what would you LIKE to see in a motor name? Having the turn count is nice and discrete, and easily separates different wound motors that are otherwise identical. But the 06 in a 406 motor doesn't directly relate to the 06 in a 5306, nor the 06 in a 2806. What if instead we went with the actual KV value in rpm/V? NC-8.9, NC-10.3, NC-12.4 could be the 2807, 2806, and 2805 hubs respectively. Do you like that more, or should we just rename the series to 2707, 2706, 2705 etc. and then when it comes to the larger 273mm diameter motors, we'll just have to deal with the confusion of them also having 27mm magnets in some other way?

We're getting our next batch of motors with a custom side plate that can have the motor name and specifications incorporated in the graphics, so there is an opportunity here to choose something that will stick which we can all be happy with. Curious to hear what your opinions are on the matter.

Justin
 
Dear god yes !!!! something meaningfull i can cram into my brain.. all this 10x6, 6x10, Xyz AAARRRRGGGHHHH.....

I have a good grasp on the clyte 40x , rc motors use rpm/v method and is straightforward imo. to make it into a pleasant logo might be a bit of a challenge.

-F = Front
-R = Rear

-D = Disk ?!

those are easy enough, magnet ring diameter is a tougher one. if there are only going to be 2 sizes offered giving them a designation would be an option. But i HATE the " Brute " and " Road Runner " type names.. personal thing hehe..
 
How about apple, berry, cherry, key lime, peach, pecan, raisin, sugar . . . pies!
Custard, lemon, cow, mince meat, not so good.
Chicken and turkey pies likewise.
Less confusing than all those numbers.
Quiche would be whole different class of cheesey motor than say pizza pie.
 
I would measure stator diameter, magnet width, then wind count.

So a x5303 would be a 190-53-03, or whatever the measurements are exactly. This is how RC motors are generally classified, and it works very well for comparing motors based on the stator and magnet sizes.


x2 suggestion on using KV for the motors too. That would tell people exactly the speed.
 
The thing I most want to know about a motor is the RPM/V because if I know that then nobody needs to say it's a 24, 36 or 48V motor or a 20", 26" or 28" motor. The nomeclature for that such as the "NC-8.9" in your example may have to be rounded to say "NC-9F" or denoted by whole numbers like "NC-89R" but that would offer the most information up front and avoid confusion. The power could also be worked in as well I suppose but without everyone using the same convention it isn't useful when comparing one motor to the next if there is no standard. I don't think the diameter in the identification offers any real info and magnet size...nah not really.

I do believe names for motors make sense as long as it also includes a numerical tag with some significance but they need to be instituted industry-wide, preferably by the manufacturer. One seller calling the same motor by one name and another seller by yet another name really confuses things. BMC with the 400W V1 and 600W V2-T, V2-S and 1000W is a fair way to identify their models but it doesn't help to have one seller call them "Thunderbolt" or "Black Lightning" or for a Crystalyte merchant to call an X5305 and X5303 "Brute" and "Racer" if no one else does. Bafang really is confusing with their letter identification that has no rhyme or reason and which I can never remember. They have tried to remedy this by now calling them "Cheapbutgood", "Jewel", "Unique" and "Climber" however except for the last moniker it’s apparent something was lost in translation.

So yeah I’m all for a motor identification which will have some meaning but it needs to be a universal change to have the greatest impact.


-R
 
The torque of a motor goes up by the square of the diameter and linearly with the width of the stator, so I think those are GREAT measurements to have. It also can elude to the power of the motor, and allows for fast referencing of motor sizes. Tack the KV value on the end and you really don't need to know anything else besides the weight.

200-27-8.9 Easy enough to decode if you know what you are reading, right?
 
Since we are talking about a way to identify motors within a manufacturer’s product line and not a universal identification system to be used by all manufacturers it’s redundant to specify the stator size and magnet width. We already know the attributes of a 9C but what we don’t know from 9C motor to 9C motor is the speed of the thing. The winding convention isn’t a bad way to identify the motors however it can get confusing when there starts to be many variations offered; for example is the 10x6 the faster one or is it the 6x10, the 7x9 or the 9x7? So it makes sense if there is one basic motor offering with many windings to find a simple yet informative way to identify them. Using the RPM/V number is something everyone can understand and remember that low is slow and higher is faster. If in the future there are multiple motor lines being offered then there would be some additional way to differentiate them either by an additional number or by a name. So if Nine Continent offers another model besides the one we all know then maybe the present 9x7 is NC-89(F/R) and the next model is NC2-XX(F/R).

-R
 
Zoot's idea is where my sarcasmic brain went.Perhaps to add to the mystique have a hostess cake line.
 
justin_le said:
How do you ever get straight which is a 9x7 winding or a 7x9 winding?

Justin,

You are absolutely right, and well done for walking boldly into this minefield. Its high time this was sorted out. In the case of NC its actually misleading, and I've once or twice got the impression that even the vendors don't understand it.

A convention that made the number of windings clear would be good, but could it be extended across all makes? As an engineer, what I really want to know is four things:
Kv
Winding resistance
Max rpm
Max continuous heat dissipation capability

I've put those in order. If we could just get the first two that would be something.
In my ideal world, the name would come from the number of windings, and the better vendors would be able to tell you the rest.

Nick
 
work it out backwards so that the biggest seller (or most expensive) ends up with mod# NCC-1701.
maybe add a letter suffix to indicate different winds or magnet width or something.
engrave the # in an arc with a huge sans-serif font that's visible at a distance across the disc face.
some markings giving a hint of equally divided radial sectoring along with a few concentric rings suggestive of a wire-frame look & be prepared to sell a ship(t?) load.
 
I'm gonna be different,( suprise suprise) and suggest a model name, followed by numbers that tell the type of motor within that model.

Model name should be something pretty understandable and descriptive, like big motor- small motor, heavy - light, big diameter- small diameter, and the winding count.

So 9 cont, large rotor, 7 ,,,,,,,,,, 9 cont , small rotor, 7( current 9x7),,,,,,,,,,,clyte large rotor 5 ( current 5305) etc.

Or even give the number but tell what the number means, like 9 continent, 205 rotor, 7 count.

A chart could supply all the tech data everybody needs, magnet width, strand count, actual rotor measurement, recomended voltage, etc etc etc. No need to put everything in the name, just what you need to describe which one without getting non descriptive like 9 cont twinkie vs, 9 continent crispy creme.

It's stringing the numbers together with no idea what they mean that is going to scare off the noob customer. Don't want that, they might be more comfy with a piece of pie.

No way is every vendor going to do the same thing, but settle for doing it the best way, as usual Justin. Be the pack leader.
 
Jack Rabbit 01
Jack Rabbit 02
Jack Rabbit 03
Jack Rabbit 04
etc.

Jack Rabbits are fast!

Do I win?
 
Oh, Justin, you have opened a can of worms, haven't you... :mrgreen:

FWIW, I actually agree with your original idea, which I think is to have hub diameter, magnet width and then kV. If you did this for all the motors you sell, it would allow rough comparisons between brands. For instance, a Clyte 4 series has a smaller diameter than the NCs, but have wider magnet widths, so I'm guessing models of each with similar kVs will have similar performance. Anyway, that's my take on it. :roll:

-- Gary
 
Stator diameter, magnet width, KV.

Winding resistance would also be really nice to know, maybe the number could just be rounded to 2 sig-figs of mOhms and placed after.

A name could be something like:

190-27-13-14. That would work for me :) This would be almost like the RC motor nomenclature standard.
 
I really like using the Kv value in the name. Its also pretty easy to add a tag at the end to note different versions with the same Kv ie- NC-9-HT for a higher torque with kv ~9 or NC-9-LT for a lightweight version also having a Kv~9.

When it comes right down to it I really don't care one bit what you call it as long as when I click on it in your webstore it gives me a link/tab with the full detailed specifications.
 
Vanquizor said:
I really like using the Kv value in the name. Its also pretty easy to add a tag at the end to note different versions with the same Kv ie- NC-9-HT for a higher torque with kv ~9 or NC-9-LT for a lightweight version also having a Kv~9.

When it comes right down to it I really don't care one bit what you call it as long as when I click on it in your webstore it gives me a link/tab with the full detailed specifications.

Hmm... I don't think that it is possible to have a motor with the same diameter and the same width and the same kV have different torque ratings. I guess you could have different values if the resistance is significantly different, but why would a manufacturer do that?

Knowing the resistance would be good to know, but I'm not sure it needs to be in the name. For a given model size, it is already going to be directly related to kV.

-- Gary
 
When the motor is for sale in the store, I would love to see those awesome static torque graphs you did where it shows the two slopes of torque vs current. :)
 
Also depends on the target audience ( This from a guy who has been doing Tech Support for 13 years... :shock: ) .. graphs are awsome for those who know how to read them but i would venture to guess a very large amount of people would just glaze over and then come the emails... :lol:

It's either because i'm more used to it but a clyte 404, 405, 406, etc.... fast to slow progression is easy to follow.. The # x # format of 9C motors is not so easy to work out mentally :oops:

How many different models will be on the store ? F1, F2, F3 ( pick letter that makes a nice logo ) denoting slow, faster, fast, insane, methods..

The details can be done in a link with all the graph and geek stuff some of us enjoy so much ( neighbor today looked at me weird when i gave her an observation that our LED flashlights with nimh batteries are discharging and charging at a 1:1 ratio ! 30 minute charge for a 30 minute dog walk ! :mrgreen: )...
 
Holy moly, here's a chance to get some actual motor information when you buy a motor. Justin, please list motor kv if nothing else. This would take a lot of the mystery about which motor to choose for your battery setup. It seems that the most common question asked is about how fast will motor X go with battery Y and RPM per volt gives you a place to start making a comparisons.

The remote control world's motor naming schemes using motor diameter and length are very helpful too.

You could give each one a pretty name if you like, but could you at least assign a serial number (SKU number)that could be decoded into technical data?

Thanks for asking!
 
dogman said:
I'm gonna be different,( suprise suprise) and suggest a model name, followed by numbers that tell the type of motor within that model.

Model name should be something pretty understandable and descriptive, like big motor- small motor, heavy - light, big diameter- small diameter, and the winding count.

So 9 cont, large rotor, 7 ,,,,,,,,,, 9 cont , small rotor, 7( current 9x7),,,,,,,,,,,clyte large rotor 5 ( current 5305) etc.

Or even give the number but tell what the number means, like 9 continent, 205 rotor, 7 count.

A chart could supply all the tech data everybody needs, magnet width, strand count, actual rotor measurement, recomended voltage, etc etc etc. No need to put everything in the name, just what you need to describe which one without getting non descriptive like 9 cont twinkie vs, 9 continent crispy creme.

It's stringing the numbers together with no idea what they mean that is going to scare off the noob customer. Don't want that, they might be more comfy with a piece of pie.

I agree with dogman... creating a name with a bunch of numbers and letters to describe every detail of the motor will be confusing and intimidating to the average consumer. Sure... everybody is an engineer or rocket scientist here ;) - but most people don't have the technical knowlege or experience to understand all these symbols.

Like dogman mentioned, I think the best idea would be to come up with a catchy name that relates to the main purpose of the motor (ie: NC Pull, NC Speed, NC Commute) - then attach a number to assign some of the details (ie: NC Pull (6x10), NC Speed (10x6), NC Commute (9x7))

Just my 2 cents...
 
KV is more for indicating for speed relaitve to volt...

What about TORQUE also !?

xx Nm/A match..

EDIT
I forgot abot that for few sec... :oops: ... Thanks Justin for reminding me that :wink:

Doh... Kv for indicating torque and speed

Well.. every motor have specs...

now what of these spect should stay in the spec sheet only and what spec should be indicated by the model of motor?

THAT'S THE QUESTION i think..

190-53-04-12-F-55-x-y-z... :shock: .. seem a bit too complicated fore a motor name or model...

when people talkj about the 5304 we already know it's a fairly high torque motor and great speed.. and for the detailed specs we just have to search for them.

I just can't imagine a discussion of people here that could look like:

Oh.. I think i'll buy the 190-53-04-12-F-55-x-y-z but i hesitate between it and the 190-53-05-12-F-55-x-y-z

maybe the 210-27-08-12-F-55-x-y-z culd be ok...

:roll:

Just imagine new E-S member reading that! :shock: They could feel a bit lost....

but if you name the 5304.. everybody know it..

Model must stay model.... specs must stay specs


just my 2 cents..

Doc
 
ecowheelz said:
Like dogman mentioned, I think the best idea would be to come up with a catchy name that relates to the main purpose of the motor (ie: NC Pull, NC Speed, NC Commute) - then attach a number to assign some of the details (ie: NC Pull (6x10), NC Speed (10x6), NC Commute (9x7)..

I agree with this mindset also. Keep it simple with minimal numbers.

For example, if your grandmother or a mechanic walks into a lawnmower shop they know to look for the Horse power rating, usually labeled on the machine also.
 
Ha ha some of you guys truly crack me up! Thanks for all the lively responses, I didn't realize that this would be quite the can of worms!

Although my left-brain want thought it would be great to have the crucial parameters in the model number (dia, width, +Kv ), as a number of people implied, it definitely seemed that a the numeric string that ensues would be an awkward sell and that's been confirmed by the later posts here. It seems that 4 digits is about the most that works in a name. So no one has issues with 5304, or 4011, etc. but if you add even just a 5th digit to the number it starts to get out of line for a product name.

But, I am very encouraged to hear the overall endorsement of KV being appended to the motor identifier. I think that could really work, and spares having to explain turn-count to new customers and the inverse relation between winding count and speed. And my part ulterior motive here is that it might finally break the false association between turn count and torque, by simply getting #turns out of the picture, and converting it to the value that really matters, RPM/volt.

(ie: NC Pull, NC Speed, NC Commute)

My issue with this, and with the whole racer/cruiser/brute thing, is that they imply these are different motors with different characteristics. But they are not. If you have the same motor with the same magnets, same laminations, same mechanical construction, and just wind it with more or less turns, you still have the same motor. All the specs such as maximum torque, power, efficiency, heat dissipation, L/R time constant, etc. are fundamentally unchanged, and it is misleading to give it a name associated with an attribute (ex speed or torque) that it doesn't have over the other units.

It's kind of like making a 12V and a 24V version of a 60W lightbulb. They're still 60W lightbulbs. You wouldn't call one "lightning" and the other "candle" just because if they are run at the same voltage the 12V unit would shine way brighter.

So yeah, I'm thinking the best consensus is to go with a unique name for each motor series (ex, 400 series, 5300 series, NC 205 series, NC 273 series, eZee series, etc.) and then append to it the KV value. I can't decide if the KV should show the decimal value or not. A lot of hubs have KV less than 10, so rounding to the nearest digit produces pretty large errors. We can drop the decimal and have it show 10xRPM/V, so 10.9 becomes 109, etc. which looks better I think.

Golden used 'magic pie' for their 273mm diameter motor series, does anyone here have a catchy name idea they'd like to have stick with the Nine Continent version, to distinguish it from their 205mm motors?

Justin
 
Doctorbass said:
KV is more for indicating for speed relaitve to volt...

What about TORQUE also !?

xx Nm/A

DoctorBass, you a are a smart man, you should know the answer to this! The KV for your speed is exactly the same KV for the torque. A motor that has 5 Nm/A also has a KV (in scientific units) of 5 Volts/Rad/sec. Since most people like RPM more than radians per second, then there is a small conversion factor if the KV is expressed as RPM/V

Nm/A = 60/(2 * pi * Kv)

So if you know the RPM/V, you also now the Nm/A, no other way about it unless you want to violate the conservation of energy.

Well.. every motor have specs...
now what of these spect should stay in the spec sheet only and what spec should be indicated by the model of motor?
THAT'S THE QUESTION i think..

Indeed so. The nice thing about KV, is that by showing it you get 2 spec's in one!

It would be NICE to have some allusion to the power of the hub, clearly a 5300 series is more powerful than a Nine Continent, which is more powerful than a 400 series, but it's such an aribrarty thing to assign a specific value and I find that people read into a nominal wattage rating way too much, and make ill informed decisions because of it. Like when Wilderness Energy was selling their DC motor kits as "600 watts", and their brushless kits as "400 watts", even though by any objective normalized measurment criteria their brushless motors were more powerful and had greater torque.
-Justin
 
justin_le said:
...

Golden used 'magic pie' for their 273mm diameter motor series, does anyone here have a catchy name idea they'd like to have stick with the Nine Continent version, to distinguish it from their 205mm motors?

Justin

The Endless Sphere ! :D .. or just Sphere .

Is that ES infringement ? :lol:
 
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