The wheel-building spoke-lacing thread, post your tips

Tipps?
I used these online wheel building tutorials from Sheldon Brown: http://sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html and Steve Litt: http://www.troubleshooters.com/bicycles/wheelbuilding/index.htm

Sapim Poliax hexagonal nipples are way, way easier to work with than 'normal' nipples!
 
Two thumbs up for that link. troubleshooters.
Finally got a wheel together with boxed valve stem!...didn't even notice the other 3 I built where wrong.
My air tools have 45 or 90 degree tips so I never had any interference with the spokes crossing.
Looks like a good winter time project to rebuild, more professional looking if anything.
 
Ordered a Xiongda hub, now looking at rims (Sapim spokes seem to be the default choice for ebikers). Some rim sellers divide the choices into "light" groups and "strong". Of course I want strong. I've heard Mavic recommended a few times, so I'm considering them. In the "strong" MTB 26-inch, most are disc-only (no machined sidewalls for V-brakes). I may use this rim for other things (who knows?), so I want either brake style to be allowed. That narrows it down to one choice.

Mavic EX 721, suggested retail $85
double-wall, one steel eyelet, 21mm width accepts 2.3-inch wide tires up to 3.0
http://www.mavic.us/rims-mtb-ex-721#.VJwSkugAA

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Alexrims, 26-inch, double-wall, steel eyelet, 36H...24mm wide (good up to 2.0-inch)
DM24 ($25-$32 ebay/Bikewagon-Amazon) ERD-547mm
http://www.niagaracycle.com/categories/alex-dm24-26-36h-silver
http://www.amazon.com/Alexrims-DM24-Mountain-Downhill-Silver/dp/B001CJV76O

Alexrims.com, 26-inch, double-wall, steel-eyelet, 36H,...32mm wide (good for 2.4-inch and 2.5...Cyclops and Hookworms)
DX-32 ($43-48-ish)
http://www.amazon.com/Alex-DX32-26-36H-Black/dp/B001CJX3B6
http://www.niagaracycle.com/categories/alex-dx32-26-36h-black
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Sun Ryno Lite $25, 2.0-inch/50mm
http://www.niagaracycle.com/categories/sun-alloy-rim-26-x-2-00-ryno-lite-silver-36-hole
http://www.amazon.com/Sun-Alloy-2-00-Lite-Black/dp/B000AO3HSI/ref=sr_1_9?s=sporting-goods&ie=UTF8&qid=1423162963&sr=1-9&keywords=sun+rhyno+lite+rims+26

Weinmann ZAC-19, $22
1.5-inch/38mm
http://www.niagaracycle.com/categories/weinmann-zac-19-bicycle-rim-26-x-1-50-36-hole-silver
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Fat Bike Rims
2 choices from Alexrims for 4-inch tires, 73mm/76mm outer width, disc only
http://www.alexrims.com/product.asp?sc=0&cat=26

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Surly fat bike rims and tires (up to 100mm rim width/4.8 tires)
http://surlybikes.com/parts/wheels

Lightest fat tire 26 X 4.0 Kenda Juggernaught at 771gr, lightest tube is Qtube at 244gr.
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Blunt-35 mid fat rim (35mm outer width, will accept 2.0-3.0 tire width)
26-inch, double-wall, 36H, no eyelets, disc only, $109
http://www.velocityusa.com/product/rims/blunt-35-559
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"44mm is about as narrow as you can go and still run a 26 x 3.8 tire"
 
If you have to drill the rim spoke holes, do so at an angle pointing towards the hub spoke hole that spoke will connect to. For a 26" rim and a standard 10" DD hub motor, that's about a 20 degree off center angle for a 1X lacing Makes lacing a lot easier.
 
I had surfed to this product looking for wide rims (without the need to go straight up fat). 25+mm width rims in 36 hole patterns. The 36 hole "dually (45mm)" (26er & 29er options) looks ideal to get a big footprint.

http://www.velocityusa.com/product/rims#sizes-tab

Looks like most are for disc only, with a few that will take a rim brake (probably meant for cyclocross).

MTBR discussion about the "mid fat" Dually

Edit: the Dually may not fit a lot of bikes (it fits into the 26+ or 29+ category) and only does 32h spokes. But the Blunt 35 seems ideal, as it is produced in the ohso popular 36h spoke hole options (majority of electric hubbies are 36h).
 
I have been using Sunringle MTX33 559-26 rims, 33mm wide. Disc only with eyelets. edit-oops...these rims are in fact 26mm inside width.
They are around $35, works great, lotsa different flavors too, pink camo, 32 hole rims, 29" rims even.

Here is a good deal on them.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sun-Ringle-MTX33-26-MTB-Rim-36-Hole-Black-/400731510875?pt=US_Rims&hash=item5d4d75985b

Also the stickers come right off so you can have a nice plain black rim without all the loud graphics.
 
Having just completed my first ever wheel build, here are my 3 tips.

1. Make sure you have another wheel on hand to copy.
2. Get a cheap Philips head screw driver and grind off 2 blades to make a serviceable spokes nipple screwdriver that locates itself in the nipple.
3. Invest in a cheap dial indicator to help with truing the wheel this was most valuable. I just clamped a wood block to the bike frame and screwed the indicator to it. with this in place you can see the adjustment as you tighten each spoke. The cheap ones on ebay have a 10mm range which is plenty for truing bike wheels.
M301769P01WL.jpg


An extra tip use a spare spoke threaded into the back of the nipple to poke it through the rim and start the thread on the spoke, then unscrew it and use the screw driver to tighten.
 
Re: lacing patterns:--

If you're lacing a hub motor or a large diameter gearhub like a NuVinci, don't even consider cross-2, 3, or 4 lacing. You don't need it, and you'll wind up breaking spokes needlessly. Your task is only to decide whether you can get away with cross-1 lacing-- that is, whether the spokes and nipples can sit in line with each other when tightened-- or whether you can't and thus must use radial lacing or some exotic partial cross pattern instead. A good rule of thumb is that 700c and most 26" rim and hub motor combinations can use cross-1, and that 20" and 24" wheels usually must use radial lacing, or else the rim holes must be modified to allow the nipple to tilt more than normal.

Re: inbound vs. outbound spokes--

Since hub motor wheels are always using either cross-1 or radial lacing, the spokes never cross each other near the flange. They don't have to be alternated inbound and outbound, or as I put it, "elbows in" and "elbows out". Thus you can gain a small but worthwhile bit more bracing angle by lacing all the spokes elbows-out, or equalize spoke tension a little bit by lacing the rear wheel's right side all elbows-out, and the left side all elbows-in.

Re: wheelbuilding toools--

Spokes should be tightened to at least 100kgf on the tighter side of the wheel. For that you must use a spoke key (or socket tool if using hex-headed nipples); a screwdriver will not work. However, a screwdriver-like tool called a "nipple driver" can be a great help for getting a wheel laced up and ready to add tension.

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A tensiometer is an invaluable tool to tell you when you're done adding tension. It's very hard to tell how tight a spoke is by squeezing or plucking it, especially with the weirdly short spokes most of use use on hub motors. In fact, some of our short spokes and lacing patterns make it impossible to get a measurement with a tensiometer. The DT Swiss tensiometer doesn't need as much uninterrupted spoke as the Park or Wheelsmith gauges. Radial spokes are easier to measure than crossed spokes.

Re: good rims for e-bikes--

There is little incentive to shave grams on an e-bike, especially when there is a potential cost in reliability. We want rims that are strong, heavy (by bicycle standards), and preferably cheap.

There's no better rim for the money than the Alex DM24. You can get it in 20", 24", and 26", but not 700c as far as I know. It costs about $25 plus shipping at an online discounter, or about $35 at a brick-and-mortar bike shop. It weighs over 600 grams, has a good braking surface that you can use or not, and is made with good materials and consistency.

The Sun Rhyno Lite is the closest equivalent for 700c wheels. $35-40 retail, time-honored, burly. It's just a little lighter and narrower than DM24.

For those who have enough tire and brake clearance to use a moderate fatbike rim, the Origin8 DAT-PRO-65 is a crazy strong rim for the money, about $60 retail. It's 65mm wide, which is the catch, but it's double walled, with braking surfaces, and weighs about 1100g in the 26" size. Importantly for us, it is available in 36 hole drilling, which many fatbike rims are not.

For narrower tires that don't fit well on the 28mm width of the Rhyno Lite or 32mm width of the DM24, the Alex Adventurer and Alex DM18 are inexpensive rims with all the same virtues but narrower width. The Velocity Chukker is expensive ($80ish) but an outstandingly strong rim with a highly optimized cross-sectional shape. All the above three are available in 26" or 29".

Re: spoke quality--

DT Swiss, Sapim, and Wheelsmith spokes can be considered top quality, and interchangeable in that regard. From among these, you don't need to choose by brand-- only by length, gauge, price, and availability. DT Swiss and Wheelsmith both had issues in the past, but that is so long ago now as to be of no significance.

Union and Marwi spokes are OK. Many generic spokes e.g. "Wheelmaster" are usually Union brand, with a house brand label to offer versatility to the distributor. Nisi are more than likely OK if they're still around. There are others that were second to none in their day, but only the big three of DT Swiss, Sapim, Wheelsmith should be considered beyond reproach these days. Spoke metallurgy has improved a lot in the past two or three decades, and any spokes from before then, or companies that have fallen into obscurity since then, should be regarded as less than ideal.
 
The night before building a wheel, I dip the threaded ends of the spokes into a small container (35mm film canister) of boiled linseed oil, then lay them out with the ends hanging over the edge of my workbench to semi-dry.

The linseed oil will provide lubrication during assembly -which effectively prevents the spokes from twisting-- and that creaking sound of threads galling during final tensioning (after stress relieving), and will coagulate into a non-permanent 'thread locker' several days later.
 
Chalo said:
Re: lacing patterns:A good rule of thumb is that 700c and most 26" rim and hub motor combinations can use cross-1, and that 20" and 24" wheels usually must use radial lacing, or else the rim holes must be modified to allow the nipple to tilt more than normal.

With non-eyeletted rims and Sapim's Polyax nipples, I've had good experiences lacing 1-cross in 20" and 24" sizes with geared motor hubs (120-180mm hub flange diameter). The spoke angles at the rim are still reasonable and the benefit of avoiding radial to get some bracing angle is worth it IMO.
 
Stevil_Knevil said:
The night before building a wheel, I dip the threaded ends of the spokes into a small container (35mm film canister) of boiled linseed oil, then lay them out with the ends hanging over the edge of my workbench to semi-dry.

The linseed oil will provide lubrication during assembly -which effectively prevents the spokes from twisting-- and that creaking sound of threads galling during final tensioning (after stress relieving), and will coagulate into a non-permanent 'thread locker' several days later.

boiled linseed oil

Sorry to go OT but another good use for Linseed oil is to mix 50/50 with paint thinner and wipe that solution on faded black exterior automotive trim. Restores to new look and lasts for months.
 
Since we are going a little OT..

Have a couple spares done up when ordering (or cutting & rolling your own threads into) spokes.
Poke a hole in the end of one of the grips, then screw a nipple snugly onto a spoke and insert it into the 'bar end.

Hope you never need it, but remember it is there if/when a spoke should fail.
 
I'm just building my first ebike wheel. I have a Q100-CST hub (so quite small) with a SunRhyno Lite (ERD about 547mm) equivalent rim. I was initially advised to use a 2x pattern for strength so bought some DT swiss 14g spokes which are 235mm length. When I thread the spokes into the hub the flange is quite thick and so my spokes don't hang nicely down (or up) they end up angling outwards and inwards for the spokes with the spoke head in and spoke head out respectively. When I took this to my LBS to see if they would do a wheel build they suggested that the spokes were likely to break at the heads because of this. They suggested getting the 'right spokes for the hub' from the hub supplier. I imagine 13g spokes might sit better in a thick flange than 14g spokes but I don't know this for sure (none of the videos of ebike wheel building on YouTube would appear to use 14g spokes).
As this would be the first ebike wheel build the LBS has done I'm reluctant to buy more spokes at this point as it would mean another delay to the project. So the question is is it OK/normal to have to bend the spokes in/out over the flange when building with 14g spokes as I imagine they all have the same issue with going into a flange that is thicker than a standard bicycle hub flange.
Photo attached. All advice appreciated, thanks.Cute100_spokes.jpg
 
As long as you get the spokes nice and tight and you stress-relieve them, they'll conform to the flange just fine. I'm more concerned about the 2X pattern than about the flange thickness. No hub with a flange diameter more than about 75mm warrants more than one spoke crossing. There is just no significant difference in strength among different cross counts on large flanges, but there is a significant difference in the likelihood of kinking the spokes where they insert to the nipple.

Cross-one gives the major advantage of allowing all the spokes to be laced outside the flange for better bracing angle.
 
nick_w said:
I'm just building my first ebike wheel. I have a Q100-CST hub (so quite small) with a SunRhyno Lite (ERD about 547mm) equivalent rim. I was initially advised to use a 2x pattern for strength so bought some DT swiss 14g spokes which are 235mm length. When I thread the spokes into the hub the flange is quite thick and so my spokes don't hang nicely down (or up) they end up angling outwards and inwards for the spokes with the spoke head in and spoke head out respectively. When I took this to my LBS to see if they would do a wheel build they suggested that the spokes were likely to break at the heads because of this. They suggested getting the 'right spokes for the hub' from the hub supplier. I imagine 13g spokes might sit better in a thick flange than 14g spokes but I don't know this for sure (none of the videos of ebike wheel building on YouTube would appear to use 14g spokes).
As this would be the first ebike wheel build the LBS has done I'm reluctant to buy more spokes at this point as it would mean another delay to the project. So the question is is it OK/normal to have to bend the spokes in/out over the flange when building with 14g spokes as I imagine they all have the same issue with going into a flange that is thicker than a standard bicycle hub flange.
Photo attached. All advice appreciated, thanks.
Those spokes are perfect. I think that your LBS is wrong. Just bend them to the right angle to point at the rim. I've never had spokes break when they're like that, but if the elbow is too long so that they already point at the rim loosely, you get them breaking at the elbow due to fatigue after some miles. This is only a theory, but I haven't heard a better one for why spokes break on some wheels but not others. It fits with my experience.
 
I am looking for some advice on my first wheel build. It's a MXUS 3000 hub motor and an Alienation Blacksheep 24" rim (http://shop.alienationbmx.com/black-sheep.html). I have run the spoke length calculations for both 0-cross and 1-cross pattern using the Grin spoke calculator. The hub spoke hole diameter is 4mm but I will drill a set of new holes, 3mm or whatever is required. I am thinking of using a good quality 12 gauge spoke. The rim spoke hole diameter is 4.5mm and the nipple hole is 8.4mm. I don't think I need any dishing.

Should I go 0-cross or 1-cross pattern?
What size spoke and manufacturer?
What side (in or out) should the spoke head face?

Any advice is greatly appreciated.
 

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Mauimart- use one cross. 12g will be too thick for the rim. Ideally you would redrill the hub flange with smaller holes for 13/14 butted spokes that are also closer together to reduce the angle. Otherwise you will need to use washers.
 
rim tape.jpgA couple of tips that I can share......
1. If you are in a pinch for rim tape I have found that the hockey tape us Canadians use to tape our hockey gear on with works pretty good. It has a nice thickness to it and stretches nice and its cheap. I am not saying its as good as the stuff sold as rim tape as I have never bought or used the stuff but the hockey tape works good enough for me.

2. This is a saftey tip......If you are taking an old wheel apart and figure you will just cut the spokes out think about the safest way of doing this. I think you could get a spoke in the eye if you have taken off the tire, tube & rim tape and then proceed to cut a spoke with a pair of side cutters while staring right down the barrel of the rims eyelet. I doubt this has ever happened to anyone but I tend to be always thinking worse care senerio. Drives my kids crazy that is for sure.

3.The spoke length calculater on grins site is real nice. I use to have a formula for doing all the math that worked real good for calculating spoke lengths by measuring flange width and ERD etc but these calculators online take all the head aches out of it. For me I still like to measure the components myself if I have them all in my lap just to make sure before putting in the numbers into the spoke length calculator. For instance I was building the little 20" rims for my trike and different online sellers of the same rim where giving different ERD specs so I think if you can, measure your parts yourself if you have them in your hands and then put these numbers into the spoke calculator.

4.This tip may or may not be a good one but its someting I have used for lubricating my nipples before the build. I have used "Never Seez Anti-Seize & Lubricating" for spoke prep. I have used it as its in my shop and I am not saying its as good as the stuff made for the job but kind of like my hockey tape tip....its been in the shop and seems to work.
 
johnrobholmes said:
Mauimart- use one cross. 12g will be too thick for the rim. Ideally you would redrill the hub flange with smaller holes for 13/14 butted spokes that are also closer together to reduce the angle. Otherwise you will need to use washers.

How does this look?

Paired hole spacing at 20mm. Not sure what the hole diameter should be for 13/14 butted so I just entered 3mm. Drilling template is shown below.
 

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mauimart said:
I am looking for some advice on my first wheel build. It's a MXUS 3000 hub motor and an Alienation Blacksheep 24" rim (http://shop.alienationbmx.com/black-sheep.html). I have run the spoke length calculations for both 0-cross and 1-cross pattern using the Grin spoke calculator. The hub spoke hole diameter is 4mm but I will drill a set of new holes, 3mm or whatever is required. I am thinking of using a good quality 12 gauge spoke. The rim spoke hole diameter is 4.5mm and the nipple hole is 8.4mm. I don't think I need any dishing.

Should I go 0-cross or 1-cross pattern?
What size spoke and manufacturer?
What side (in or out) should the spoke head face?

Any advice is greatly appreciated.

Keep the spoke holes. Quality 13 gauge (2mm) spokes are not only sufficiently strong, using them will result in a longer lasting wheel than using thicker spokes.

Thick 12 gauge spokes are too strong to really work in a bicycle rim. Spokes work like springs. You can't really tighten 12 gauge/3mm spokes enough into their elastic deformation (to act like a spring) in a bicycle rim. IIRC 13 gauge spokes, correctly tightened, already pull with about 1/2 a metric ton at the rim. Too loose spokes (not streched into elastic deformation) will lead to breaking spokes. Jobs Brand discribed that at lenght in his book The Bicycle Wheel.

I use good quality 2mm Sapim Leader spokes in my MXUS 1307 (>6,000km in a trike = higher latheral forces to the wheel than 2wheelers) at 3kW peak in a 24" rim in a 1cross pattern.

For better fit of the thin spokes in the big spoke holes of the hub motor, I use small 2mm brass washers (sorry no english link).

Are you shure about the dishing? Normally bicycle rear ends are symetric.
If yours is, you need to build an asymetric, dished, wheel to make up for the space of the freewheel to keep the rim centered to the frame.
 
Any advice on maximum permissible spoke angle? My eyeleted Mavic rim with single cross has resulted in a 14° angle exiting the nipples.

Also, approximately how tight should they be in terms of turning the spoke key? I have greased 13/14ga single butted Sapim spokes with 12mm nipples. They sound OK, but I'm guessing that if you need two hands on the spoke key, or they creak while tightening, this is too tight, but I could be mistaken?
 
Punx0r said:
Any advice on maximum permissible spoke angle? My eyeleted Mavic rim with single cross has resulted in a 14° angle exiting the nipples.
Are the spokes bent coming out of the nipple? Cuz that's where I would draw the line...whenever I have had problems because of angle it's usually because the threads snapped from bending there.

Sometimes though it's rim failure or nipple failure because the nipple head is only seated at one tiny edge and not across teh whole rim of the head onto the eyelet/rim. That's where those spherical washers would come in handy, if the nipples aren't made taht way already.

I think all of the pre-laced hubmotor wheels I've gotten have had one or both problems, and failures because of one or the other. Sometimes it's because the nipple head or rim deforms from the intense pressure at a tiny spot instead of all around the nipple head and rim hole, and so the spoke is then loosened, and then others loosen, and spokes start snapping at elbows, or the nipples unscrew themselves and the spokes either fall out or just hang loose, and then other spokes break because of the uneven and high loading on them.




Also, approximately how tight should they be in terms of turning the spoke key? I have greased 13/14ga single butted Sapim spokes with 12mm nipples. They sound OK, but I'm guessing that if you need two hands on the spoke key, or they creak while tightening, this is too tight, but I could be mistaken?
depends on your hands. I need two hands on there even for normal stuff, cuz sometimes it hurts too much with just one or I can't get enough grip.

Creaking...that sounds like there's no lube on the nipple head/rim hole.

But could be too tight, if it's coming from there instead of spoke.

Sometimes it's normal as the rest of spokes nearby settle, or rim does, etc. Almost all my wheels get built from used parts so it's hard for me to say what new stuff would be like. ;)


If you really wanna know how tight they are vs should be, you'd need a spoke tension meter, and a guide from the spoke maker on limits.

Otherwise, the various wheelbuilding guides, like the wheelsmith one or sheldon brown's, would be a decent guide till you learn to "feel" it.
 
Chalo said:
As long as you get the spokes nice and tight and you stress-relieve them, they'll conform to the flange just fine. I'm more concerned about the 2X pattern than about the flange thickness. No hub with a flange diameter more than about 75mm warrants more than one spoke crossing. There is just no significant difference in strength among different cross counts on large flanges, but there is a significant difference in the likelihood of kinking the spokes where they insert to the nipple.

Cross-one gives the major advantage of allowing all the spokes to be laced outside the flange for better bracing angle.
Chalo said:
Re: lacing patterns:--

Re: inbound vs. outbound spokes--

Since hub motor wheels are always using either cross-1 or radial lacing, the spokes never cross each other near the flange. They don't have to be alternated inbound and outbound, or as I put it, "elbows in" and "elbows out". Thus you can gain a small but worthwhile bit more bracing angle by lacing all the spokes elbows-out, or equalize spoke tension a little bit by lacing the rear wheel's right side all elbows-out, and the left side all elbows-in.


Both points I was going to make too. Heads inside bend outside, give a wider spoke 'base' for lateral strength.

All my spook beak ages have been spokes bending coming out the nipple, and that is on a single cross pattern.
So rim with the biggest ERD available...which is why I am now going to AVOID double wall rims.
As mentioned earlier, Sapim Polyax nipples, to allow the nipples to pivot.
Also to help them pivot... :shock: Drill out any eyelets :shock: This allows the nippels to pivot more.
I also do believe a few years ago LFP was talking about using in washers under the nipple heads, ..if it was not washers it was small half nuts or some sort of concave washer, to allow the Polyax to pivot better.

I've drilled out the eyelets, and never had a failure at that point, and that is without a washer.
Butted spokes, yes, but i'd go with single butted, not double. Simply because if you have a thinner spook at the rim end, you have a thinner smaller nipple. That slimmer nipple can pivot tin the rim hole better, so you relieve the major stress point on any large hub build...the spoke bending as it comes out the nipple.


Oh, if you have an old 80's programable calculator..I have a ready made program for you

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=59701&p=892096#p892096

http://www.retrobike.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=295731
 
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