Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

[Hillhater]

It has always been the intention, that high kWh prices for housholds are GOOD to encourage people to use electricity more efficiently.
A few Euros more or less for electrity simpy is irrelevant for me. I have more than enough money to live a good life.

..... fortunately few world leaders share that rediculous and highly selfish viewpoint.
Most realise that cheap energy supplies are essential for development and health.
Why would you want to restrict anyones prosperity,?..... other than for politically selfish reasons ?

Climate chnage is already here. I my city (Dresden) ground water has been depleted by 3 successive years now, the ground is dry down to 2 meters, trees are dieing by hundreds of thousands (some because of drought alone, many because of the combination of drought and bugs)

For me losing the water supply and seeing the forest die is no small joke.

Well maybe you should increase the cost of water to restrict its consumption also....(especially your wealthy industries ?)..because it is not due to a reduction in rainfall which infact has an INCREASING TREND over the past 100+ years..

 

[JackFlorey]

Why would you want to restrict anyones prosperity,?.

To keep people and endangered species alive, perhaps?

 

[Cephalotus]

Most realise that cheap energy supplies are essential for development and health.

This could be the reason why Venezuela with dirt cheap energy is an export powerhouse while Germany is unable to feed its population. Oh wait...

Well maybe you should increase the cost of water to restrict its consumption also....(especially your wealthy industries ?)..because it is not due to a reduction in rainfall which infact has an INCREASING TREND over the past 100+ years..

Please stop trying to educate me on things you obviously have not the slightest idea about. (which is no problem, I do not expect anyone here to know anything about our local situation, but maybe you are able to understand that I know such things much better, living here, than you do with 2 minutes of "google research")

The graph shows the precipitation deficit on average over the last 3 years in Saxony:

With 500mm missing through the last 3 years in my city the drought in the soil is now down to 2m, trees are already dying.

In addition this is the long term temperature trend over here:

The increased temperature leads to more evaporation, which further exacerbates the drought.
In addition, an increasingly large proportion of precipitation falls as heavy rain and cannot seep away at all, but runs off above ground.

 

[Hillhater]

Most realise that cheap energy supplies are essential for development and health.

This could be the reason why Venezuela with dirt cheap energy is an export powerhouse while Germany is unable to feed its population. Oh wait...

Venezuela is a Economic and political disaster with a predominantly RE electrical supply that only works some of the time...
.....thanks to its pre-occupation with socialist ideals. !

The graph shows the precipitation deficit on average over the last 3 years in Saxony:
With 500mm missing through the last 3 years in my city the drought in the soil is now down to 2m, trees are already dying.

... A3 year drought is NOT climate change,..it is a WEATHER EVENT !

 

[Cephalotus]

... A3 year drought is NOT climate change,..it is a WEATHER EVENT !

Yes it is. Most likely a forecast in our near future.

This is what lokal climate experts believe.

I'm sure you know it better.

My opinion still remains the same: I do bot care paying 100 Euro/year more for electricity, tha'ts peanuts. But I do care a lot if our forests die and burn.

 

[TheBeastie]

More Fuel-cell aircraft on the way, seems like they have plans for all sorts of air-taxis short term but also believe a 40 passenger fuel-cell aircraft with 2,000km range is possible.
https://fuelcellsworks.com/news/new-dlr-hy4-the-first-hydrogen-powered-aircraft-debuts-at-stuttgart-airport/
https://youtu.be/ZtQvDUN2ukE
[youtube]ZtQvDUN2ukE[/youtube]

 

[Hillhater]

Beastie..
That “H2fly” site is a little light on details,...but i guess a working 4 seat powered glider is a step forward.
However they are still very much in the “Wright bros” stages compared to practical, commercial H2 powered flight with a few basic issues to address .
So far they are just enthusiastic Ideologists demonstrating a theory , without actually solving any real problems
Fundamentally there is the low specific energy of H2 such that it needs 7x the volume of Avgas for the same energy content...and that is when it is compressed to 700bar (10,000+ psi) ..which then adds the problems of pressurised vessels for flight situations....weight, size, risk,..and they do not fit in wing voids very well either !
Also for even small limited passenger ( <20 ?) commuter aircraft, a LOT more power would be required , which means high power fuel cells currently at 2kg per Kw inplies a 500kw commuter ( like the MagniX eCaravan) would be carrying 1000kg of fuel cells, in addition to all the electrical power train and hydrogen pressure vessels.
Not much room or weight capacity left for passengers ?
But beyond all that, someone has to demonstrate how to produce “Green” H2 on a commercial scale ,, economically.
How is this any better than a battery powered equivalent.?
https://robbreport.com/motors/aviation/worlds-largest-electric-airplane-takes-flight-2930460/

 

[Hillhater]

Why is Geothermal energy not used more for electricity generation ??
Even ignoring the contentious debates around emissions, renewable energy sources, environmental impacts, ...etc, etc.. i am wondering why Geothermal isnt developed more ?
It can provide continuous , reliable power ,..practically indefinitely , with zero emmissions, using proven available rotating generators that do not complicate grid services, or require supporting storage for unpredicted output variations.
There are some good, if limited, examples in Iceland, NZ, and the USA, etc, ..but there are also some significant failures, both commercially, and environmental.. ( Earthquake initiation ?)...but the technology has moved on and lessons learned. Most of the existing GT power systems are in locations near or on Geological Fault lines where the thermal sources are close to the surface. But with modern EGS ( Enhanced GT Systems), and deep drilling technology, it can be possible to locate a productive GT power plant in almost any location in any country.
It seems that most of the multi $$billion RE Grants , funding, and subsidies, as well as private investment, has been attracted to the quick financial returns offered by Wind and Solar installations. That is a short sighted plan, with many known contentious issues.
To me , it seems like a “no Brain Required” decision. An oportunity to move away from dependency on Chinese solat equipment, and batteries, unreliable weather dependent generation, ..and develop a reliable , dispatchable, generation system with zero emissions, that is also “grid friendly” and can be flexibly located for a distributed supply system .
So,.. why not ??
[youtube]-Ss_wHCS1Aw[/youtube]

 

[Dauntless]

Why is Geothermal energy not used more for electricity generation ??
Even ignoring the contentious debates around emissions, renewable energy sources, environmental impacts, ...etc, etc.. i am wondering why Geothermal isnt developed more ?
It can provide continuous , reliable power ,..practically indefinitely , with zero emmissions, using proven available rotating generators that do not complicate grid services, or require supporting storage for unpredicted output variations.

Well, it's not that simple. There are emissions, less than coal, etc., but apparently enough that the debate of is it worth it all comes up.

Meanwhile, you could build one for your house. Except you need space for it. So there's not going to be a neighborhood full of 'Let's take the heat from under the paved roads for the houses it's in front of.'

It is not unlimited, it depletes. So you build your plant, you begin cooling the ground off. How long will your particular piece of real estate continue producing?

The plant itself is pricey. But there's potential to pay off the investment if the ground heat holds up. The best places would be around volcanos, right? How many active volcanos have people nearby to use the electricity?

But I have a great use, I know Hillhater will love this: You know all that hot water from cooling the nuclear plants? You know how they use it to kill all the fish downstream? Wouldn't it be better to build a geothermal plant for the water to run into and be cooled before it is released in the river? I mean you lose all the local environment damage that apparently is desired or something, but there's more electricity. . . .

https://www.irena.org/geothermal

 

[Hillhater]

You are thinking of ground source HeatPump systems, and “ conventional” near surface GT hot water/steam sourced power plants like NZ etc.
i am suggesting developing the newer “enhanced GT “ systems,that use deep drilling (3-5 km) and hydraulic cavity forming, ..anywhere on the planet...no volcanoes needed !
..actually best away from active fault areas, to avoid the risk of earthquake stimulation.
they can work with “Dry” rock structures and recycle the operating water,steam. Hence no emissions,
Re the utilisation of hot water from Nuks etc......i suspect you will find that all the useable heat is already extracted in low pressure turbines, and pre heating of water supplies etc....and community heating in places like
Russia.

 

[nicobie]

My municipality has its own electricity utility that has been powered by geothermal for over 60 years. It's worked out great. Even though the kWh price has been creeping up lately, we still pay less that our neighbors do.

https://lompocrecord.com/news/opinion/editorial/lompoc-produces-geothermal-energy/article_c75b74b5-ffe1-56ff-99fe-23f6acb72563.html

 

[neptronix]

liquidpiston recently demonstrated their ~75% efficient rotary engine and got an Army contract for it. They plan to scale up to automobiles when they have the resources. This is an interesting engine because you can burn biofuels hyper-efficiently since it runs on a diesel-like cycle.

Imagine a fleet of the world's cars running these engines.. things like global warming and pollution could be a backburner issue.. buying us some time until mass electrification of all the things.

 

[markz]

Rotary engines are good in some ways, bad in others.
https://www.carthrottle.com/post/engineering-explained-why-the-rotary-engine-had-to-die/

I'd like to see the improvements they made to the rotary engine.
https://www.liquidpiston.com/

These engines are not Wankel engines; they are uniquely configured to adopt the company’s patented thermodynamic cycle and its associated efficiency and low-noise benefits. LiquidPiston’s X Engine improves virtually all parameters – efficiency, weight, size, vibration, and noise.

Very interesting!
:thumb:

liquidpiston recently demonstrated their ~75% efficient rotary engine and got an Army contract for it. They plan to scale up to automobiles when they have the resources. This is an interesting engine because you can burn biofuels hyper-efficiently since it runs on a diesel-like cycle.

Imagine a fleet of the world's cars running these engines.. things like global warming and pollution could be a backburner issue.. buying us some time until mass electrification of all the things.

 

[Hillhater]

My municipality has its own electricity utility that has been powered by geothermal for over 60 years. It's worked out great. Even though the kWh price has been creeping up lately, we still pay less that our neighbors do.

Lompoc seems to have been an early pioneer of GT, and has had to solve many of the early issues that stopped other similar progects. Those lessons are now available to “next Generation “ ..EGS, GT projects.
I was not aware of the “Steam Tax” imposed on the plant ??...a bit cheeky if they are using recycled water.
Power pricing is generally driven by distribution, and “service” costs together with “Market” forces ?,...rather than wholesale generation costs. There is no reason for GT power to cost more than Wind etc...unless it is trying to recover “Development” costs as a private enterprise.

liquidpiston recently demonstrated their ~75% efficient rotary engine and got an Army contract for it. They plan to scale up to automobiles when they have the resources. This is an interesting engine because you can burn biofuels hyper-efficiently since it runs on a diesel-like cycle.

Imagine a fleet of the world's cars running these engines.. things like global warming and pollution could be a backburner issue.. buying us some time until mass electrification of all the things.

An impressive development.
However, i fear any device that “burns” hydrocarbons , no matter how efficiently, or from eco sources, will fall foul of the GND, / AGW, ideals, and meet huge resistance.
Maybe as a Hybrid/ Range extender it may stand a chance.
I believe Mazda are working on a similar range extender system using a new development of their Wankel engines.

 

[sendler2112]

https://www.vox.com/energy-and-environment/2020/10/21/21515461/renewable-energy-geothermal-egs-ags-supercritical

 

[Hillhater]

Nice find Sendler.
A good expanation of the situation and potential.

 

[jonescg]

One for the hydrogen enthusiasts: https://about.bnef.com/blog/liebreich-separating-hype-from-hydrogen-part-two-the-demand-side/

"What if the world throws a hydrogen party and no one shows up?"

Anything H2 can do, electricity can do better.

 

[Hillhater]

It always puzzels me how anyone can seriously propose H2 or Ammonia as a viable alternative fuel for Commercial Aviation
Even in the Form of ammonia, it would still require 3x the volume and 2.5 x the weight provide an equivalent energy content to Avgas/Kero.
..and then there is the little issue of turbines that can run efficiently on it ?
Strange that Bloomberg made no mention of Geothermal, even as just a back up to Wind/Solar.?

 

[Cephalotus]

Commercial hydrogen airplane are at least imaginable:

https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-releases/en/2020/09/airbus-reveals-new-zeroemission-concept-aircraft.html

Military aircraft will continue to use hydrocarbons.

 

[Cephalotus]

liquidpiston recently demonstrated their ~75% efficient rotary engine and got an Army contract for it. They plan to scale up to automobiles when they have the resources. This is an interesting engine because you can burn biofuels hyper-efficiently since it runs on a diesel-like cycle.

Imagine a fleet of the world's cars running these engines.. things like global warming and pollution could be a backburner issue.. buying us some time until mass electrification of all the things.

Carnot is also vaild for those engines, so I call 75% for a care engine a fake.

 

[Cephalotus]

i am suggesting developing the newer “enhanced GT “ systems,that use deep drilling (3-5 km) and hydraulic cavity forming, ..anywhere on the planet...no volcanoes needed !

The< are available under ideal conditions somewhwere in Iceland or a hot spot in Italy.

In Germany electricity from them costs around 50ct/kWh, which is 10times the price for solar and wind (and that's only if you use cheap electriicty for the pumps which consume up to 50% of the lectricty generated)

There is a very significant finacial risc building them. It makes a HUGE difference if you get 120°C or 150°C.

The technology is more interesting for district heating in some regions like Munich, where you do not need temperaures as high.

in my region they discussed for years about building one but the micro electronic industry over here that was built on granite rock far away from any quakes could easily loose up to 1 billion Euro for each(!) micro earthquake induced by a geothermal power plant, so they stoped thinking about it some years ago.

 

[sendler2112]

Horizontal drilling expertise as was developed for shale oil and gas can be repurposed (as those jobs are phased out) for this new, closed loop technique for geothermal electricity.
"Eavor’s solution (Eavor-Loop™) represents the world’s first truly scalable form of clean baseload power. Eavor achieves this by mitigating or eliminating many of the issues that have hindered traditional geothermal solutions. As a completely closed-loop system, Eavor has the advantage of no fracking, no GHG emissions, no earthquake risk, no water use, no produced brine or solids, and no aquifer contamination. Eavor instead circulates a benign working fluid which is completely isolated from the environment in a closed-loop, much like a massive subsurface radiator. This “radiator” simply collects heat from the natural geothermal gradient of the Earth via conduction, at geologically common and drilling accessible rock temperatures. Unlike traditional geothermal, Eavor isn’t burdened with exploratory risk or limited to niche geographies through the need for highly permeable aquifers at volcanic-like temperatures. Unlike wind and solar, Eavor-Loop™ is not intermittent, but instead produces much-needed reliable baseload power. Unlike other forms of power, Eavor is benign enough to literally fit in someone’s backyard."
.
https://eavor.com/about
.
https://youtu.be/GZcFd5Xfv-0
.

 

[JackFlorey]

Anything H2 can do, electricity can do better.

I would also point out that you can make methane even more easily than hydrogen. And if it comes from bioreactors or a Sabatier process, it is just as carbon-neutral as hydrogen. And it's a lot easier to store.

 

[JackFlorey]

..... fortunately few world leaders share that rediculous and highly selfish viewpoint.
Most realise that cheap energy supplies are essential for development and health.

That's a ridiculous thing to say.

It's like a guy who comes from sub-Saharan Africa and says "more and cheaper calories are essential for good health." Where he comes from that might be true. But if he moves to Mississippi and can't change his worldview - he is going to be dead wrong, because the biggest health problem in that state is too MANY calories.

You need 2000-2500 calories a day to be healthy; you need about 2000 watts average worth of energy "spent" on you to live well. Saying "well we always need more for good health" is as ignorant as that guy who came from Africa and couldn't adjust his way of thinking to a new reality.

 

[Hillhater]

..... fortunately few world leaders share that rediculous and highly selfish viewpoint.
Most realise that cheap energy supplies are essential for development and health.

That's a ridiculous thing to say.

It's like a guy who comes from sub-Saharan Africa and says "more and cheaper calories are essential for good health." Where he comes from that might be true. But if he moves to Mississippi and can't change his worldview - he is going to be dead wrong, because the biggest health problem in that state is too MANY calories.
.......

Jack, a couple of points..
Note , that i said “World Leaders”..IE people capable of leading others to a better future.....not hat guy fron Mississippi chugging 7UP !
Are you really suggesting that the billions in 3rd World countries wont benefit from having access to Electricity.
Heating for cooking ...so they do not have to spend half their time searching for firewood and destroying trees and brush in the process, and shorten their life expectancy from smoke etc..
Cooling to preserve any perishable food, so they do not have to spend the rest of the day hunting or forraging for a meal, and enable medicines /vaccines to be distributed and stored
Lighting so they can function, read, lean, work, after dark.. a single light bulb can transform a child’s future !
..........so yes,..any intellegent person can understand how electricity is vital to improving the health and futures of billions of people.