Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

[JackFlorey]

Meanwhile all the 3rd world ****holes are polluting, China's polluting and dumping yet we got to pay a carbon tax.

Cause we send a HECK of a lot more carbon into the air (per person) than they do.

 

[Dauntless]

Meanwhile all the 3rd world ****holes are polluting, China's polluting and dumping yet we got to pay a carbon tax.

Cause we send a HECK of a lot more carbon into the air (per person) than they do.

And here China is number one, in 2017 they were at 30% of the world's and growing. If China was gone, it would get so much easier. If you only measured the small percentage of the population actually benefiting from their industrialization, I bet per person would blow everyone else out of the water.

 

[markz]

China can do whatever they want with the blessing of their own government, how many billions they got? 1.4 BILLION!

Yangtze River in China has been found to be the most polluting river in the world, dumping some 333,000 tonnes of plastic each year into the East China Sea, according to researchers at the Ocean Cleanup Project.

Then there is India, how many billions they got? About the same 1.4 BILLION!

It was found that the the Ganges River in India ‘is the world’s second-most polluting river’, dumping 115,000 tonnes of plastic in Bay of Bengal.

Ah yes here is a nice list
Summary - 5 Chinese rivers are on the list, edit, nope 7!

Top 20 Most Polluting River In The World, 2017

Yangtze
Location: China
Ganges
Location: India and Bangladesh
Xi
Location: China
Huangpu
Location: China
Cross
Location: Nigeria and Cameroon
Brantas
Location: Indonesia
Amazon
Location: Brazil, Peru, Columbia, and Ecuador
Pasig
Location: Philippines
Irrawaddy
Location: Myanmar
Solo
Location: Indonesia
Mekong
Location: Thailand, Cambodia, Laos, China, Myanmar, and Vietnam
Imo
Location: Nigeria
Dong
Location: China
Serayu
Location: Indonesia
Magdalena
Location: Colombia
Tamsui
Location: Taiwan
Zhujiang
Location: China
Hanjiang
Location: China
Progo
Location: Indonesia
Kwa Ibo
Location: Nigeria

Then there are the lakes, is Russia going to clean up Karachay?

Lake Karachay (sometimes spelled Karachai or Karachaj), is a small lake in central Russia. It is often referred to as the most polluted site on earth.

Lake Tai is located on the Yangtze Delta near Shanghai in China. It is the third-largest freshwater lake in China, and has been plagued by pollution in recent times due to the rapid growth of surrounding regions. While details surrounding the pollution in the lake are sparse, there are thousands of factories on its shores, which quite possibly all discharge industrial waste into its waters.

Brazil, Serra Pelada Lake

Raw sewage in Africa - Lake Victoria

And here China is number one, in 2017 they were at 30% of the world's and growing. If China was gone, it would get so much easier. If you only measured the small percentage of the population actually benefiting from their industrialization, I bet per person would blow everyone else out of the water.

 

[markz]

We pay through the nose in taxes, cleanup and "they" get to slide and pay nothing while still dumping and still polluting.
And, they infected the world with the virus!

 

[sendler2112]

Keep in mind that much of the Carbon emissions and pollution of China end up embodied in the manufactured "stuff" that we in the rich countries buy, including raw materials like lead and steel, chemicals, rare earth elements, everything. We rich countries have just outsourced our pollution to them so we didn't have to deal with it anymore.

 

[JackFlorey]

We pay through the nose in taxes, cleanup and "they" get to slide and pay nothing while still dumping and still polluting.

Chinese citizens pays 3% to 45% in personal income taxes. What do you pay?

 

[TheBeastie]

When it comes to China vs USA emissions, I think it was a good idea Trump withdrew from the Paris Accords.
USA folks haven't really seen the invisible damage that happens when you jump full step into this green energy tax crap, all of a sudden the power bills go up 250%.
So if you were someone who runs a small coffee shop and your power bill was $20,000 a year suddenly after a few years it's now $50,000 and money that could have gone to having more staff workers etc goes down the invisible drain of enriching banks.

If you look at the video below, Dr Shiva really won my respect back in ~2017 when he so accurately describes what a rip-off deal it is for the USA.
The amount of money the USA would ship off to unknown entities overseas so they can continue to release co2 is absolutely huge and it doesn't fix anything.
USA would be better off putting that co2 tax into making 4th gen nuclear technology etc.

This video is absolute gold, but it was originally recorded in Periscope so the YouTube conversion is low quality.
https://www.pscp.tv/w/1yoKMBMPeNnGQ?t=4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bkar4jn3JWw
[youtube]Bkar4jn3JWw[/youtube]

 

[JackFlorey]

When it comes to China vs USA emissions, I think it was a good idea Trump withdrew from the Paris Accords.

Anyone who cares more about his own wallet than the future of humanity will agree with you.

 

[Hillhater]

The “Paris Accord”. Is a huge con.
It will not, and Cannot , make one bit of difference to the Climate, Global temperature’s, or the increase in atmospheric CO2 levels .
All it will do is make a few dictators and political leaders of 47 LDC’s wealthier..
....and hand more power to the UN.

Oh, and Jack... what has personal income tax got to do with any carbon tax scheme ??

 

[JackFlorey]

Oh, and Jack... what has personal income tax got to do with any carbon tax scheme ??

You'd have to ask Markz. He brought it up: "We pay through the nose in taxes, cleanup and "they" get to slide and pay nothing"

 

[markz]

China can pollute away with immunity and the government allows it, meanwhile we are paying a high price which includes carbon TAXES, but also other costly measures corporations have to do, not only in the energy sector. Spending 10's of millions to scrub emmissions output, meanwhile China doesnt have to do anything but build more coal capacity.

----

In 2018, China’s emissions of carbon dioxide, the leading heat-trapping gas, rose roughly 2.5 percent. This was the largest annual increase in five years.

In 2018, roughly 30 GW of new coal-fired power capacity was added in China (roughly 60 midsized coal plants). Capacity additions for coal-fired power plants continued at the same pace in the first half of 2019.

China’s public financial institutions continued to lead the world in financing new coal-fired power plants abroad (44 GW).

In the U.S., the state of California and climate activists celebrated the closure of the Navajo Generating Station in northern Arizona, one of America’s largest coal-fired power plants, and the Kayenta mine that fed it with 8 million tons of coal per year. Almost 1,000 well-paying jobs were lost in the heart of the Navajo and Hopi Indian reservations.

Meanwhile, in the People’s Republic of China, coal production increased 2.6% in the first half of the year, with coal mining capacity hitting 3.53 billion tonnes in 2018, equivalent to 3,891 million short tons, or a little more than five times the coal mined in America. The centrally planned Chinese economy expects to add 290 gigawatts of coal-fired power plants in the coming years, peaking at 1,230 to 1,350 gigawatts of power.

Today, China’s coal-fired electrical generating capacity stands at about 1,000 gigawatts and climbing, more than four times America’s 236 gigawatts (which is declining). In fact, China is planning to add more coal power (290 gigawatts) than the U.S. currently produces (236 gigawatts).

From January to June of 2019, Chinese regulators approved the addition of 141 million tonnes of new coal production. In 2018 they only approved 25 million tonnes. By comparison, Arizona’s recently closed Kayenta mine produced 7.3 million metric tons (tonnes) annually.

The U.S. retired 12.9 gigawatts of coal-fired power plants in 2018, and from 2010 to the first quarter of 2019, U.S. power companies retired 546 coal-fired power plants totaling about 102 gigawatts of generating capacity. This means that China intends build almost triple the amount of coal-fired power than the amount the U.S. retired over a decade.




https://www.forbes.com/sites/chuckdevore/2019/12/16/china-goes-all-in-on-coal-while-telling-the-rest-of-the-world-to-reduce-emissions/?sh=5e64ca5badd6

 

[JackFlorey]

China can pollute away with immunity and the government allows it, meanwhile we are paying a high price which includes carbon TAXES

Nope. You've been reading too much right wing propaganda. The US does not have a carbon tax. A few states have a cap-and-trade policy which means that you can pollute to your heart's content - up to a limit (the cap.) If you want to pollute more you can buy 'credits' from another company who has extra (the 'trade.') No tax. No money to the government. All the money stays within the companies.

 

[Addy]

China can pollute away with immunity and the government allows it, meanwhile we are paying a high price which includes carbon TAXES,

Nope. You've been reading too much right wing propaganda. The US does not have a carbon tax. A few states have a cap-and-trade policy which means that you can pollute to your heart's content - up to a limit (the cap.) If you want to pollute more you can buy 'credits' from another company who has extra (the 'trade.') No tax. No money to the government. All the money stays within the companies.

markz is from Canada where there are carbon taxes.

https://www.canada.ca/en/environment-climate-change/services/climate-change/pricing-pollution-how-it-will-work.html

 

[JackFlorey]

markz is from Canada where there are carbon taxes.

Ah, that explains it! Good catch.

 

[sendler2112]

meanwhile China doesnt have to do anything but build more coal capacity.

Saudi Arabia, Australia, Canada, USA are the 4 highest CO2 per capita at over 15 tonnes/ person. China is 8. And most of that is exported to other rich countries embodied in goods and raw materials. All rich countries must degrow their economies and quit buying, building, and consuming so much stuff if we want China and others to quit burning coal.
.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/723173/g20-carbon-dioxide-emissions-per-capita/
.
https://www.carbonbrief.org/mapped-worlds-largest-co2-importers-exporters
.

 

[miro13car]

China can pollute away with immunity and the government allows it, meanwhile we are paying a high price which includes carbon taxes ..."
' end of quote
here in Alberta:
first move after election of Jason Kenny in Alberta , he removed Carbon Tax
as far as I know he ended carbon tax in Alberta less than year ago..

 

[Hillhater]

Remember, it is not only a potential “carbon tax” impost, but also the $100 billion annual contribution each signatory of the “Paris” agreement has to contribute
Follow the money....and watch where most of that little windfall ends up !

 

[markz]

Carbon Tax Repeal Act was the first piece of legislation introduced by Kenney and his newly elected United Conservative government. Until late 2019 paid into the carbon tax since Jan 1 2017 and it all added up when we were paying it and still does not stop the Federali's from imposing something later on and with the covid debt growing and growing who knows their scheming ways to come. They just might add a Provincial Sales Tax to Alberta since we dont have one and some others provinces do along and the HST. We easily skip over that 5% in Alberta while BC pays 12% (5% gst + 7% pst) each with their excemption items.
I have a friend who is low income and received money for goods and services tax and back then a carbon tax check, it was whatever it was maybe a few hundred bucks 2 or 3 times a year.

On the business side of an industry in Canada, to have cleaner emissions is very costly to follow legislation. Environmental legislation is very strict and can take a very long time to jump through the red tape to get things approved and permitted. Very costly for us to make moves in certain industries. Not like Russia where you can just pay off some government official and do as you will, chainsaw tree's and kill Bambi yet build a pipeline at light speed and not a snails pace. Its not a level playing field but we still do business because its a career and a lively hood.

 

[JackFlorey]

On the business side of an industry in Canada, to have cleaner emissions is very costly to follow legislation.

Yep. I remember hearing about how the Clean Air laws in the US would absolutely bankrupt all the car companies because catalytic converters were insanely expensive. They have PLATINUM in them! And about how CAFE would lead to everyone in the US driving sub sub compact cars and that's it. Pintos or smaller!

We heard the same thing about reducing power plant emissions and ending the use of CFC's. And yet every time those laws were passed, those horrid projections of doom, gloom and bankruptcy always failed to materialize.

Every company wants to have fewer regulations on THEM and more regulations on OTHER people. It's a given. Good governments write good laws that work no matter what the moneyed special interests say.

 

[Cephalotus]

When it comes to China vs USA emissions, I think it was a good idea Trump withdrew from the Paris Accords.
USA folks haven't really seen the invisible damage that happens when you jump full step into this green energy tax crap,

Well, what could you expect from Australia?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=92t8np88fEI

 

[Cephalotus]

On the business side of an industry in Canada, to have cleaner emissions is very costly to follow legislation. Environmental legislation is very strict...

You are form Alberta?

we all know very well how "strict" your enivironmental rules are. Really nice what you are doing over there:

Are there any plans to "reclamate" that hell you made? Doesn't look like to me.

It's not very suprising that the most vehement promoters against environemental protection and stoping climate change are from two guys from Australia and one from Alberta/ Canada.

It's just a money thing for you. Understandable to some point but please stop to try to fool us about your motivation.

If you want to argue, we have the same sort of guys over here, too:

Huge CO2 emission for very little wealth in return. Just ultra stupid not to stop this as soon as possible.

At least we try to make it habitable again, which takes decades:

I assume that's the difference between an densly populated country and a country where poeple do not care much about creating badlands.

But the harm to the planet has been done in all cases just to make a few people rich and can not be undone in centurys at almost unimaginable costs.

 

[Cephalotus]

That was good right up to the point of saying: " in Germany, electricity price is 50% less than Poland". Germany and Denmark have the highest priced electricity in the world at $0.38/ kWh...

See attached file.

Source: https://ec.europa.eu/energy/sites/ener/files/quarterly_report_on_european_electricity_markets_q_4_2019_final.pdf



Retail prices for households are VERY different from wholesale electricity prices and have not much to do with the cost of electriicty generation.

 

[sendler2112]

Retail prices for households are VERY different from wholesale electricity prices and have not much to do with the cost of electriicty generation.

Germany has had the highest ongoing national subsidies for new electricity projects which allows the new producers to bid down the wholesale price. And then the consumer pays the country back with the corresponding fees at the retail end bringing the actual cost up to among the highest in the world.

 

[Hillhater]

Retail prices for households are VERY different from wholesale electricity prices and have not much to do with the cost of electriicty generation.

Very true..
The difference between the Wholesale price from the generator, and the actual retail cost is what it ACTUALLY costs to provide a commercial supply.
Compareing wholesale prices tells you nothing about real energy costs

 

[Cephalotus]

Germany has had the highest ongoing national subsidies for new electricity projects which allows the new producers to bid down the wholesale price.

Actually Germany has zero national subsidies for new RE projects. What Germany does have is FITs.

There are now a few offshore windparks and solar parks taht do not even get/want FITs.

And then the consumer pays the country back with the corresponding fees at the retail end bringing the actual cost up to among the highest in the world.

That's the concept of the EEG.

But staring in 1.1.2021 the oldest RE power plants will leavethat system, those that cost the most, i.e.small PV systems got around 50€ct/KWh 20 years ago.
German houshold electricity prices include many other aspects like VAT, Konzessionsabgabe, cosst for the grid (usually not included in your kWh price), the EEG, taxes and others...

It has always been the intention, that high kWh prices for housholds are GOOD to encourage people to use electricity more efficiently.

Most people do not have any problems with those prices, that includes myself. I don't care.

It is very different for the energy intense industriy that pays prices very near the wholesale prices mentioned above. That's the raeson why there is a aluminium indutsry in Germany, a large chemical industry and why, for example, Tesla is able to build a factory that will produce 100-250GWh of batteries over here.

A BASF does not care about household electrity prices and most people also do not care, because prices are as they are. There are no options and Joe average or Lieschen Müller simply spend their money on many other expensive things, so there is very little reason why not to pay a few Euros more each month to tranform the electricity system.

Climate chnage is already here. I my city (Dresden) ground water has been depleted by 3 successive years now, the ground is dry down to 2 meters, trees are dieing by hundreds of thousands (some because of drought alone, many because of the combination of drought and bugs)

For me losing the water supply and seeing the forest die is no small joke.

A few Euros more or less for electrity simpy is irrelevant for me. I have more than enough money to live a good life.