SoCal Grange Race Roll Call!!!! Congrats PaulD!!!

[liveforphysics]

Sorta the point I meant to make but didn't get it all out. The Astro is closer in size to the Turnigy80-85 and just a bit smaller than the Turnigy80-100. Almost certainly, the hi-amps was the A3220s' demise. What I meant by lo-voltage being the problem is that by having higher voltage available, I could've dropped the amp use down and still had the same power.

Under some circumstances, current limiting has created problems. The CA current limiting developed here on ES holds promise. Paul equipped his motor with hall sensors, which permitted the use of the higher voltage sensored controller, a proven solution. I have a Fighter Cat controller/ESC rated for 16S and planned to set run it at Tucson 10/29. It'll make a nice table prize at the Spring race

Your motor NEVER sees pack voltage.

Your motor never sees pack current.


Your phase current is the single thing your motor sees.

Your phase current for a given RPM and a given power level will be EXACTLY the same, if the pack is 50v or 500v.

We need to stop spreading this BS about higher voltages on the pack making a cooler running motor....

 

[Kurt]

Your phase current for a given RPM and a given power level will be EXACTLY the same, if the pack is 50v or 500v.

We need to stop spreading this BS about higher voltages on the pack making a cooler running motor....

I just read over the post again and missed the point both Astro's were only running 12s. I was working on 66v for both. 6160w for the Astro 3220 and 6600w for the turnigy 80 -100. perhaps its a number of other small things like gearing,rider weight, less thermal mass,under spec epoxy? that resulting in the Astro melting at slightly less wattage than the Turnigy.

Although one question.. wouldn't even the phase current be able to be less on a high voltage set-up. Given you run a higher RPM as each motor has a set KV and can then gear down and make the same torque with less amps but a higher RPM.

I am just trying to relate it to my own experience with my trike. it has a geared reduction 80-100 - 130kv on 55v I get significantly lower amp draw on take of then say a low kv hub motor on the same voltage. Even when set-up to give the same wheel rpm - volt for each motor. So I guess what I am getting at is . Isn't running a higher voltage taking advantage of the motors set KV rating and then allowing you to gear down. Then pulling less phase amps under the same wheel load due to the high rpm and low gearing?

Kurt.

 

[SoSauty]

Of course in a scientific or technical context. I speak in rough lay terms, such as my use of the term 'mass'. The Turnigy80-100 is larger than the Astro3220 though the true mass of the 3220 is greater. The inrunner vs outrunner comparison also dashes further any precision of comparisons.

For the purpose of simplified communication, and understandably oversimplified communication for someone with your user name, one can browse the Astros, Turnigys, 9Cs, X-5300s, and so on . . to come up with a manner in which to carry on a discussion. The T80-100 dominates 49cc Morinis, pulls up close to #74 years of evolutionary advances 49cc 2 stroke, and falls far short of other 85cc motors found somewhere on our planet.

With the torque capacity of outrunners, I don't consider the Astro 3220 inside a can as much of a peak race motor as Paul's T80-100 when compared to 2 strokes. More similiar to the T80-85 as both it and the A3220 have a 6K published rating (even which is dubious).

Power inputted also has its' downfall. Farfle's X-5300 can take 9 or 10 or 11K, but somewhere in the neighborhood of 9K, the inability to dissappate heat leads to diminishing power, 12K produces less power at the wheel than 9K. If we look at the engineering electric motor power ratings, there has to somewhere between 6 to 21 manners in which electrical power can be determined.

While a pragmatic method has eluded rating the electric motor for motored bike races, my cc concept offers a means to communicate in loose terms. Sorry I didn't explain this beforehand. Seemed like a lot of words.

Jimminee, take it easy Luke, you miss the point of causual conversation. When I look at power being transmitted along the lines, there's 100s of 1000s of volts since the wires can't handle the amp heat. It gets stepped down to lower voltage at the transformer station, then again at the transformer on the pole before it goes to the house as lowly 120V/180A. It's why even a 1/2hp well pump generally needs 220/240V if it's down deep. Lay electrical stuff is "copper wire can handle more voltage less amp" at any a given power level.

Neat discussion though: continue it here: http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=33220&p=482676#p482676

 

[Kurt]

I will set an example ,

lets say you took a Astro 3220 motor and ran it at 36v -100A - 3600w - 5000rpm wot and geared it to do 30mph. Then you took the same motor and ran it at 72v - 50A 10,000rpm wot and geared it to do 30mph.

Now both motors are being fed 3600w what would the difference be in race conditions? would the 72v motor heat less? lets put bearing friction heat aside in this example.

Kurt

 

[liveforphysics]

The T80-100 dominates 49cc Morinis, pulls up close to #74 years of evolutionary advances 49cc 2 stroke, and falls far short of other 85cc motors found somewhere on our planet.

A 49cc Morini can make 9.5hp for the duration of a tank of gasoline. The 80-100 or 3220 can't come close to that (not even 50% of that), and X5 can't even sustain 1hp continuously (as Justin's dyno tests showed). My monster motor was not able to sustain 11hp output on the dyno for a full charge.

The advantage of an electric is the ability to burst higher power levels for a rip down the straight, or a burst off the corner, and then cool down while braking and carving, hopefully, if everything is right, it's able to maintain temp equilibrium and not melt.

Gasoline engines (particularly the water cooled ones) can output the peak power they make for as long as you need to make it. The disadvantage is that you don't get to burst higher power levels, and your power band is generally pretty narrow.

Jimminee, take it easy Luke, you miss the point of causual conversation. When I look at power being transmitted along the lines, there's 100s of 1000s of volts since the wires can't handle the amp heat. It gets stepped down to lower voltage at the transformer station, then again at the transformer on the pole before it goes to the house as lowly 120V/180A. It's why a well pump generally needs 220/240V if it's down deep. Lay electrical stuff is "copper wire can handle more voltage less amp" at any a given power level.

Yes, you can minimize power transmission losses and reduce cost of cabling for power transmission by using higher voltages. Duh.

This 100% has NOTHING to do with motors and operating voltages. We've had about 50 threads on this by now, it would do you good to learn about how a motor works, and realize why 20v and 200amps or 20amps and 200v performs exactly the same way, one just needs to have 10x the number of turns, and one needs to have 10x larger phase leads (both ending up with identical copper fill in the slot). The motor performance is identical, the heat production is identical, the torque is identical, the torque per amount of heat is identical, the power per unit of heat is identical.

What you're trying to tell the poor fools who might take you seriously is exactly what Safe tried to make a bunch of comical graphs and charts about, it's like chasing over-unity.

If you want more continuous power capability from a given motor, you need to increase the operating RPM (assuming you weren't all ready maxed out).


I'm giving you a hard time on this, because you went behind our backs to talk to BiMoPed and tell him what you personally thought everybodys electric bike was making for power and how you would class them. Yet, I don't ever remember being asked anything, you just looked at pictures or datasheets or whatever (which tells you NOTHING of what power levels a person is using, a "10kw" motor can be used at 1kw or 30kw, and in my case it couldn't on the dyno, and at sub 3,000rpm couldn't even sustain 7hp).

It felt to me like back-stabbing behind the scenes, you should ask the people who's setup you're trying to rat on, or if you're completely clueless about how a motor works, say, "I don't know."

 

[nicobie]

Last week a 197 cc motor was only marginally faster than PaulD or Luke until he ran out of gas.

When on the clock he ran about .5 sec slower than Luke or Paul D. I only got him timed on one lap and he might have been sandbagging. His recorded radar speed was 40 mph, but by that time I think the guy with the gun was full of it.

197cc 4 stroke = to paul's or luke's bike.

This is what happened.

200cc .... lost

 

[liveforphysics]

Last week a 197 cc motor was only marginally faster than PaulD or Luke until he ran out of gas.

When on the clock he ran about .5 sec slower than Luke or Paul D. I only got him timed on one lap and he might have been sandbagging. His recorded radar speed was 40 mph, but by that time I think the guy with the gun was full of it.

197cc 4 stroke = to paul's or luke's bike.

This is what happened.

200cc ....

The 200cc bike was ~40something MPH gearing limited, all setup for power wheeling torque off every corner, which is what made it so fast around the track. Over half a lap faster in the 12 lap race until it broke!

PaulD's bike was only fast down the straight because he was entering the straights at 10-15mph (or more) faster than myself or any other bike I saw there. He won because the guy rides so incredibly well, he carries massive speed through the turns, and this is what makes his laptimes low, as far as power goes, Farfel's bike and Zombies hubmotor bikes both accelerated faster. (at least from my perspective on the track)

 

[nicobie]

Yep, that is true. He was maybe ½ lap ahead after 8+ laps until he came up empty. 8)

Not that big of a lead considering the ponies . :|

 

[zombiess]

PaulD's bike was only fast down the straight because he was entering the straights at 10-15mph (or more) faster than myself or any other bike I saw there. He won because the guy rides so incredibly well, he carries massive speed through the turns, and this is what makes his laptimes low, as far as power goes, Farfel's bike and Zombies hubmotor bikes both accelerated faster. (at least from my perspective on the track)

Thanks for noticing My bike would come out of the turns much harder if I could keep the front end down (and not crash so often lol), I'm having a swing arm extended to help fix that and going to a taller fork (with more compression to keep the geometry from changing so much in hard corners) to compensate for the overall geometry change. Right now my wheel base is 37" front axle to rear axle, just measured it. I'm targeting 45" total and then this thing is done.... maybe hehe.

On the one and only 6 laps of the track I managed to actually finish, I averaged 65wh/mile, but I don't have the shunt in the CA calibrated yet so it's just an estimate right now. Wish I would have known you had the heat gun, I wanted to know my winding temps which didn't seem overly hot to me, but I'm a noob.

Would have been nice to have some others ride my bike so I could get others opinions on it but had no takers, no one ever wants to ride this thing but me for some reason.
Top speed recorded on CA from the track straight away was 50.8 MPH which should be within 1% because I used a GPS to calibrate it.

 

[Kurt]

This 100% has NOTHING to do with motors and operating voltages. We've had about 50 threads on this by now, it would do you good to learn about how a motor works, and realize why 20v and 200amps or 20amps and 200v performs exactly the same way, one just needs to have 10x the number of turns, and one needs to have 10x larger phase leads (both ending up with identical copper fill in the slot). The motor performance is identical, the heat production is identical, the torque is identical, the torque per amount of heat is identical, the power per unit of heat is identical.

This isn't a argument against this just questioning my own understanding of it.

When you say one just needs 10x the number of turns and 10x larger phase leads. Is this something people are actually putting into practice though. Usually we are dealing with a set motor windings . With a given number or turns and set phase lead thickness. What happens when all specifications of the motor a kept the same and then you start playing with voltage to Amp ratios? Is this were people start to run into problems?

kurt

 

[John in CR]

The 200cc bike was ~40something MPH gearing limited, all setup for power wheeling torque off every corner, which is what made it so fast around the track. Over half a lap faster in the 12 lap race until it broke!

Half a lap faster with that much less top end....hmm, if that's what wins then it should be even easier for an electric to win these races, because our torque is so much more predictable. Gearing for peak power rpm at the typical curve exit speed is a recommendation I still stand by.

Is it my imagination but was this track a lot tighter than the one in AZ for the Death races? Other than the 2 long straights, Aiden's video made this one seem like pretty much just a long set of back and forth curves of varying degrees, which really kept speeds down.

 

[liveforphysics]

The 200cc bike was ~40something MPH gearing limited, all setup for power wheeling torque off every corner, which is what made it so fast around the track. Over half a lap faster in the 12 lap race until it broke!

Half a lap faster with that much less top end....hmm, if that's what wins then it should be even easier for an electric to win these races, because our torque is so much more predictable. Gearing for peak power rpm at the typical curve exit speed is a recommendation I still stand by.

Is it my imagination but was this track a lot tighter than the one in AZ for the Death races? Other than the 2 long straights, Aiden's video made this one seem like pretty much just a long set of back and forth curves of varying degrees, which really kept speeds down.

Yes, it was very tight, and turn 3 was off-camber and a hairpin, so you really had to tippie-toe through it. A few of the last turns on a lap were badly torn up asphault, PaulD actually slid out in one and wrecked, I had my rear step out a foot on me goin through it a number of times.

 

[Hillhater]

Gearing for peak power rpm at the typical curve exit speed is a recommendation I still stand by.
.

Quite likely John, depending on the actual power curve.
For example, i know that the top kart racers ( ICE, 2 stroke, fixed gearing) will gear to suit the lowest corner exit speed even at the expense of top speed, because they know that too much gear on a slow corner will kill you for the whole straight, whilst missing a little top end speed only matters at the end of the fastest straight. ( and you can "over-rev a 2t motor anyway)
Anyone running a clutch, has a whole other world of factors to figure into the set up.
( some of those gas bikes were missing out badly on clutch set up/gearing)

 

[liveforphysics]

This 100% has NOTHING to do with motors and operating voltages. We've had about 50 threads on this by now, it would do you good to learn about how a motor works, and realize why 20v and 200amps or 20amps and 200v performs exactly the same way, one just needs to have 10x the number of turns, and one needs to have 10x larger phase leads (both ending up with identical copper fill in the slot). The motor performance is identical, the heat production is identical, the torque is identical, the torque per amount of heat is identical, the power per unit of heat is identical.

This isn't a argument against this just questioning my own understanding of it.

When you say one just needs 10x the number of turns and 10x larger phase leads. Is this something people are actually putting into practice though. Usually we are dealing with a set motor windings . With a given number or turns and set phase lead thickness. What happens when all specifications of the motor a kept the same and then you start playing with voltage to Amp ratios? Is this were people start to run into problems?

kurt

The comma is important in there, because one motor needs 10x the turns, the other needs 10x the phase lead size. Making as big if phase leads as you want on an RC motor is roughly effortless, no meed to run less than 4awg. Making them big on a hub is much more work, I managed to get 7awg.
But a higher turn count motor sees much less advantage from it than a lower turn motor.

In the case of an Astro, you get exactly what you choose. All Astro motor winds are capable of identical performance. In the case of an Ebike, the wire runs are so short it's not like its cost prohibitive to run any size wires you like if using a given voltage makes sense from a controller or battery standpoint. A properly setup 25v, 50v, or 100v astro setup all have exactly the same performance potential, will make identical heat for a given amount of torque or power etc. The difference is one of them needs 4x larger wires to be used, and the other needs 4x more complex battery monitoring. Pick your poison, wires are cheap and you do it once, but its bulky. A bunch more cells is added headache to balance and charge and monitor, but can allow lighter smaller sires.

 

[MotorBicycleRacing]

@Kurt re: windings, definitely look stock
IIRC though Paul changed out stock bearings and shaft?

One thing i particulalry like about Paul D's, aaaand Farfles bike also
is they both still resemble a functional bicycle, more in the 'spirit'
of the e-bicycle i guess you could say? ... Take nothing away from Luke's build
it also has its merits... jm2cw

KiM

Lukes #100 ebike I mean emotorcycle with its 8" diameter motor is Unlimited class only
if he wants to race it at the next Grange race on Saturday April 7th 2012 .

Time to build another bike Luke if you want to race it in the Ultimate race and ebike
class.
No 8" diameter motors.
No 7" diameter motors.
No 6" diameter motors.

 

[MotorBicycleRacing]

Last week a 197 cc motor was only marginally faster than PaulD or Luke until he ran out of gas.

When on the clock he ran about .5 sec slower than Luke or Paul D. I only got him timed on one lap and he might have been sandbagging. His recorded radar speed was 40 mph, but by that time I think the guy with the gun was full of it.

197cc 4 stroke = to paul's or luke's bike.

This is what happened.

200cc ....

The 200cc bike was ~40something MPH gearing limited, all setup for power wheeling torque off every corner, which is what made it so fast around the track. Over half a lap faster in the 12 lap race until it broke!

There were 2 #81 AGK bikes that look similar with radared speeds of:

81 - 43mph Bryan-AGK-6.5hp with torque converter ~9 hp (raced in 4 stroke final)
81 - 51mph Bryan-AGK-built 6.5hp with jackshaft ~18 hp (raced in Ultimate race by mistake)

The 51 mph bike conked out in lap 11 with a 1/2 lap lead in the Ultimate race.
AGK thinks it may have bent a pushrod.

here are the radared speeds for most of the bikes.
1 - 37mph
3 - 40
3 - 29 (on the 49cc 4-stroke)
5 - 31
6 - 43
11 - 26
12 - 36
13 - 28
15 - 47
17 - 30
19 - 42
26 - 36
29 - 34
34 - 37
35 - 23
49 - 38
50 - 29
55 - 27
57 - 38
58 - 32
60 - 20
66 - 22
67 - 32
69 - 41
72 - 31
74 - 50 Tomahawk Tuning Moped
75 - 34
76 - 40
77 - 39
80 - 37 Blayze-AGK-79cc HF with 2 speed
81 - 43 Bryan-AGK-6.5hp with torque converter
81 - 51 Bryan-AGK-built 6.5hp with jackshaft
84 - 41
86 - 39
91 - 48
95 - 28
96 - 29
98 - 35

eBikes

100 - 67
105 - 31
109 - 49
111 - 30
113 - 31
116 - 47
117 - 29mph Dan Hannebrook ebike with balloon tires

 

[MotorBicycleRacing]

 

[sico]

No 8" diameter motors.
No 7" diameter motors.
No 6" diameter motors.

Including hub motors?

 

[AussieJester]

^^LoL...

KiM

 

[Ypedal]

how about multiple 4" diameter motors ?

or a small diameter but long type ?

I think all those conditions are rediculous, build it , bring it , ride it with respect and safety and have some fun imo.. not as if there are high dollar value prizes to be won..

Thanks for all the pictures guys, this is awsome being sutck 1000's of kms away.. i'd so love to show up and have a go at this some day !!!!... 8)

Would be hilarious to have a " Pedal First Lap " race

 

[Alan B]

I don't think the diameter of the motor is a good way to regulate.

Think about all the implications.

Pretty much all hubmotors right out.

If a motor makes x kw or y hp the diameter doesn't matter much.

Bicycles favor large diameter motors.

Small diameter motors mean higher RPM.

Higher RPM means jackshafts or gear reduction systems. More complexity and less bicycle like.

 

[TylerDurden]

4.65" diameter:

Model: 120-70-15
Resistance: 4.8ohm
ESC Required: 250A
Input Voltage : 30~70V
Kv : 150 rpm/V
Weight: 2550g
Shaft: 10mm
20v Non Load Current: 11A
Dimensions: 168x140x118mm (Including Mount)
Equivalent: 110cc Twin Gas Engine (20hp+)

 

[Ypedal]

20v Non Load Current: 11A

wtf ????

 

[Kurt]

The no load A draw on the turnigy outrunners and even more so with this particular one are very high. I use a good 300 - 500w just turning my motor over before it dose any work at 60v.

Were are the watts going... they sure as hell are not all going into turning the can. heat is the only thing it can turn into. To spin that motor at 3000rpm it takes 220w.

Kurt.

 

[SoSauty]

Here you go Luke. Love to learn about e-bikes. Hope you can contribute. See you at the next race.

Neat discussion, would love to continue in depth here.
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=33220