SoCal Motor Bicycle Race Sat Oct 22nd 2011 Grange Race Track

[AussieJester]

Hey man, I need some technical help for building a racier ebike. All the ebikes I have built have been hub motors. I want to use one of my regular motors for this build. One question I have been having is how to get a drive sprocket on the rear wheel while maintaining the original pedal gears on the rear wheel. I want to try to get it on the opposite side of the pedal gears. Do I need to get a special rim? I've seen a few different builds, but I'm not sure if I am following exactly what they are talking about. Maybe I am just misunderstanding them. It seemed like they were talking about a crank sprocket or freewheel. But wouldn't that be the the ones by the pedals?
If we get our bikes together and you want to head out there, I can take your bike and give you a ride out there. You might have to fly back home though because I plan being a couple of weeks before I come back. But I would be able to bring your bike back with me when I do come back.

Jay

You wont need a special hub although i would advise a double walled higher quality downhil mtb type rim

There are two different ways to accomplish the freewheeling lefthand drive... You will be using a 'freewheeling no regen setup i presume'? If thgis is the case (and it is with every chain drive i have seen) you will require it to have a freewheel, now this can be on the rear hub (not what i would advise) or secondly have a freewheel on the motor end of things (adviseable) The later has less 'free play' when you accelerate from a corner for example after coasting, the rear freewheel option tends to have to spin up more before you get drive, very noticeable difference (i have a bike with both so can compare LoL) To accomplish this you will need some form of disk brake sprocket adapter, this as the name suggests allows you to bolt on the adapter to the hubs disk brake mounts, to the adapter youbolt your rear sprocket, simple Mr Recumpence sells them, there is another supplier also i forget the details, you need a facebook account to contact him so I never bothered suffice to say, his kits are flash and were made and primarily directed at the ICE crew looking for something better than the 'rag connection' that comes with the China Girl 49-66cc kits, but work for electric just as well... You will then have a freewheel on the motor end of things. If you wish to go the freewheel on the hub arrangement, left hand thread freewheels are available they are cheap and nasty looking things with HUGE amounts of sideways slop in them, google or ebay "southpaw freewheels" should turn up a few hits, thats how i got onto mine (after Miles IIRC told me about the "Southpaw" label) Rest is pretty straight forward for someone of your knowledge and skill, make sure chain is aligned with appropriate tension and your ready to rip...

All the best...

KiM

p.s @SoSauty...looks like you got double the lean angle our Luke gets on his slicked up crotch rocket GSXR1000 hahaa

 

[drewjet]

Jay to be honest, I doubt I could be ready by Oct, too many irons in the fire. AJ covered the one method rather well. You can use a dual freewheel like I have on my mountain bike. Luke (LFP) was broaching the freewheels before, I don't know if he still is or not. Also you could gear the motor to the bicycle chain and take advantage of the rear derailer and be able to shift the motor, though I don't know how well that would handle race conditions. Also another way is like this, http://www.mmbikeparts.com/sprocket_adapter.htm which is from the motor bicycle shop that the OP was talking about in Florida.

 

[MotorBicycleRacing]

Hi Jay
Good talking to you today about driving Manic Mechanic's 2 stroke race bike to CA from FL.

The event is called SoCal Motor Bicycle Racing and is the second event of a new Motor Sport.
The plan is to have at least 4 races and events a year in Southern California.

I have not checked the track out at Grange yet in person. There is a definite possibility of
using the Supermoto dirt section at this race or at the next race in April or May.

This Oct 22nd race the special feature will be 1/8 mile drag races clockwise down the 950'
straight. There will also be a couple of radar guns to check speeds at the track.

If I go, I will probably be driving out and I will bring the bike with me. I've got a big 17 passenger van that I use for my Harley Racing.

I will probably be able to bring Manic Mechanics 66cc bike too if they want. I might even be able to ride it for them too if they want. What part of Florida are they in?

Riding the supermoto section of the track does definately drag a little bit of dirt onto the the track right after the portion that goes from dirt back to asphalt. When you are doing supermoto, it isn't that bad because you are going from full dirt to only partial dirt, so it is actually getting better. But if you are running it during the course of the day with pure asphalt laps it could be a problem. You would probably have to do it at the very end of the day so that classes that are only running on the asphalt will not have to go back on track. But it would be hard to have a race with no practice. Especially if guys are not used to doing supermoto tracks. Maybe do a later event just for that, or even possibly get in connection with the supermoto guys and have a powered bicycle race in their event.
So what is this event officially called, Socal Motor Bicycle Racing? I was talking with a potential sponsor and they were asking what it was called.

 

[AussieJester]

This Oct 22nd race the special feature will be 1/8 mile drag races clockwise down the 950'
straight. There will also be a couple of radar guns to check speeds at the track.

Etard with his two speed will be all over this!! Crank up the amps ETard
waaaaaaaaaaaaa :: click :: WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA ...

Good luck with the event and good luck to the competitors...

KiM

 

[MotorBicycleRacing]

This Oct 22nd race the special feature will be 1/8 mile drag races clockwise down the 950'
straight. There will also be a couple of radar guns to check speeds at the track.

Etard with his two speed will be all over this!! Crank up the amps ETard
waaaaaaaaaaaaa :: click :: WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA ...

Good luck with the event and good luck to the competitors...

KiM

Etard's bike launches violently fast from a standing start. The lack of engine noise is
a little disconcerting. Etard is hard on the equipment. Hopefully he won't break it this
time as the drag races will probably be after the last race .....

Will be interesting to see who is the fastest down the 1/8th mile and what the terminal
speeds are.

I will be announcing the the payment and sign up info soon over at.
http://www.motoredbikes.com/showthread.php?t=34780&page=6

Only 54 days to go to the race!

 

[AussieJester]

This Oct 22nd race the special feature will be 1/8 mile drag races clockwise down the 950'
straight. There will also be a couple of radar guns to check speeds at the track.

Etard with his two speed will be all over this!! Crank up the amps ETard
waaaaaaaaaaaaa :: click :: WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA ...

Good luck with the event and good luck to the competitors...

KiM

Etard's bike launches violently fast from a standing start. The lack of engine noise is
a little disconcerting. Etard is hard on the equipment. Hopefully he won't break it this
time as the drag races will probably be after the last race .....

Will be interesting to see who is the fastest down the 1/8th mile and what the terminal
speeds are.

Yup...i have the same ThudSTeR 2 speed but a stock motor on it atm, i do however run up in the 6500watt (~8.5hp) region
a lil higher than Etard's setup, he will definately be hard to beat if he don't break it thats for sure!

KiM

 

[SoSauty]

Hey Johnson64,

Will you be happy to be marginally competitive? (I would.) Some have fun to be there and be in the running. Others gotta be scary fast, which happens on a 40+mph bicycle. There's alot of DidNotFinishers. Over ambitious fast builds are risky. Hubbies can be competitive and reliable if you beef up the motor phase wiring and have a big controller that'll sync up lipo's with your motor. RC is more complex; drive system, throttlizer to connect throttle to ESC, mounting, ESC w/shunt or controller w/ halls in motor, also motor mounting, heat & current limiting concerns. Presently, the Turnigys are scarce, Astros have a 6week lag time unless you can find a used unit.

Are you considering a C9, 53xx, or BMC, high voltage w/ heavy phase wires? I haven't scanned your posts, but wonder about your build plans. Do you have a big hubbie that you could mod?
Do you have a drive unit and motor mounting for RC/non-hub motor?
How's your batt pack, capable of hi-C discharge? Lipo harnesses eat up some time to solder; consider this guy
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=30367

Lots of folks here to jump in and guide. Throw some ideas out and start building

PS AJ 2X's lean angle as Luke, haha, an' when I was on the track, thought I had it banked all the way over!!

 

[liveforphysics]

This 1/8th mile drag race sounds like a hoot!

Hopefully whatever I can put together can survive the road raceing well enough to do the drag race afterwards.

 

[MotorBicycleRacing]

This 1/8th mile drag race sounds like a hoot!

Hopefully whatever I can put together can survive the road raceing well enough to do the drag race afterwards.

Are you going to bring your Laguna Seca race bike and race it against the
# 81 Affordable Go Karts 20 hp 4 stroke in the new Unlimited Class?

There is going to be another fast 4 stroke there that has a 160 cc Chonda clutched 4
speed and makes about 23 hp.

 

[liveforphysics]

This 1/8th mile drag race sounds like a hoot!

Hopefully whatever I can put together can survive the road raceing well enough to do the drag race afterwards.

Are you going to bring your Laguna Seca race bike and race it against the
# 81 Affordable Go Karts 20 hp 4 stroke in the new Unlimited Class?

There is going to be another fast 4 stroke there that has a 160 cc Chonda clutched 4
speed and makes about 23 hp.

It's just a 5minute controller swap to have under 11hp for my bike, so I would like to run both classes if everything holds together.

The thought of racing a 20 and 23hp bicycle with my electric bicycle is making me drool right now. Bring'em on, the faster the better.

 

[MotorBicycleRacing]

This 1/8th mile drag race sounds like a hoot!

Hopefully whatever I can put together can survive the road raceing well enough to do the drag race afterwards.

Are you going to bring your Laguna Seca race bike and race it against the
# 81 Affordable Go Karts 20 hp 4 stroke in the new Unlimited Class?

There is going to be another fast 4 stroke there that has a 160 cc Chonda clutched 4
speed and makes about 23 hp.

It's just a 5minute controller swap to have under 11hp for my bike, so I would like to run both classes if everything holds together.

The thought of racing a 20 and 23hp bicycle with my electric bicycle is making me drool right now. Bring'em on, the faster the better.

The ebike you had at Laguna Seca and at the first Willow Springs race had what I
define as motorcycle tires. Those wide tires are not allowed in the 11 hp class or under.

Are you going to change the wheels and tires to 20" Pirelli ML 75's?

When you say 11 hp do you mean a flat 11 hp output from low rpm to maximum?

Most of the gas bikes in that class are 9 hp Morini's with a couple of modded
6.5 hp 4 strokes. There may be no 11 hp water cooled Morinis showing up this time
and the only one that raced last time only came in 5th.

 

[SoSauty]

Hey Luke,

There you go, just PM'ed MBR a week ago that I didn't think there were any 8 - 12K e-motors lurking and if so, the controllers would be a big issue. Haha, gotta love it. Knew you had a Gen4 somewhere, but in a way doubted you wanted to bother configuring it, on another hand, I'm pretty curious about any big controller possibilities so hope you have a breakthru for us

Is the Agni roughly 90% efficient around 9K as some of the RCs? (Can you even ride something tuned down to 9K?) Sounds as MBR may be mindful of any unwarranted advantages, real or possibly perceived by other participants. Any thoughts on how electric horsepower correlates to combustion horsepower? (edit clarification; how does e-h.p. w/ its' torque band pull compared to a peaky 2 stroke) Does torque drive a bike as much as horsepower? You're the e-engineer with a background

Given; about 750w(0.75K) equates to 1 horsepower. 9K @ 90% efficiency gives 8.1, just under 8.25K or 11 horsepower. If this needs lengthy discussion, we could start a thread in motor theory or general discussion.

You don't really want to go to Rome or Switzerland or somewhere exotic Oct22, 'Grange' California is where it's at

Will

 

[liveforphysics]

The ebike you had at Laguna Seca and at the first Willow Springs race had what I
define as motorcycle tires. Those wide tires are not allowed in the 11 hp class or under.

Are you going to change the wheels and tires to 20" Pirelli ML 75's?

When you say 11 hp do you mean a flat 11 hp output from low rpm to maximum?

Most of the gas bikes in that class are 9 hp Morini's with a couple of modded
6.5 hp 4 strokes. There may be no 11 hp water cooled Morinis showing up this time
and the only one that raced last time only came in 5th.

Yes, I bought the little Pirelli scooter tires for BMX rims. They are a decent and safe tire for use at these speeds and loads.

I can only make a certain amount of torque, and HP is torque *RPM, so I start from 0hp when stopped like ever other engine or electric motor (did you know every vehicle on the road has 0hp at the wheel when stopped, no matter how hard it's pushing against the ground, a force is not power until it has some motion or RPM).

The low RPM performance is much better than peaky gasoline engines of course, but I'm a fixed 1-speed tranny, so in road racing, it only helps you 1 time for the start of the race, and after that everyone is on a pretty level playing field, except the electrics have to lug around a heavy battery and are a HELL of a lot more difficult to keep alive on a racetrack.


For the drag race, I would expect it's open for whatever power levels the bicycles and make right? It would be cool to see nitrous used on the gasoline bicycles. If you know anyone looking to get it setup, I have 6 years of running a nitrous oxide breathing drag car and plenty of solenoids and jets and bottles and parts they may need if they want to borrow something and put it together.

 

[liveforphysics]

Hey Luke,

There you go, just PM'ed Neil a week ago that I didn't think there were any 8 - 12K e-motors lurking and if so, the controllers would be a big issue. Haha, gotta love it. Knew you had a Gen4 somewhere, but in a way doubted you wanted to bother configuring it, on another hand, I'm pretty curious about any big controller possibilities so hope you have a breakthru for us

Is the Agni roughly 90% efficient around 9K as some of the RCs? (Can you even ride something tuned down to 9K?) Sounds as Neil may be mindful of any unwarranted advantages, real or possibly perceived by other participants. Any thoughts on how electric horsepower correlates to combustion horsepower? Does torque drive a bike as much as horsepower? Glad you're an engineer, wish I had that background

Given; about 750w(0.75K) equates to 1 horsepower. 9K @ 90% efficiency gives 8.1, just under 8.25K or 11 horsepower. If this needs lengthy discussion, we could start a thread in motor theory or general discussion.

You don't really want to go to Rome or Switzerland or somewhere exotic Oct22, 'Grange' California is where it's at

Will

1HP is 1HP is 1HP. From a stop we can accelerate hard if geared properly, but once you're rolling, the advantage to electrics is sadly over, and it's pretty much a level field. If a corner has a super tight low exit speed, we should have a little more poop getting up to speed off of it.

I don't run an Agni on my road race bike, that was a bike I made just for the hill-climb. I'm running a cheapo 5kw golden-motor brushless. I can burst a large amount of power, but for continuous operation, just trying to do 10hp at the wheel for an extended run was making my motor literally have smoke burning out of it as the wire insulation in the winding's was boiling. For road racing, it will definitely be under the 11hp limit if I want it to finish the race.

 

[SoSauty]

Thanks Luke, knew about torque and horsepower long ago just couldn't recall. Electrics have a relatively broad power band but still find myself considering CVTs, Nuvinci, and various clutches. Afraid to 'nail the amps off the start as my $$ RC ESC could pop.' Thuds' 2 speed really rockets Etard.

Is this your 'Golden' listed on a hub simulator Luke?
http://www.ebikes.ca/simulator/
or this Click BLDC tab on left;
http://www.goldenmotor.com/

 

[Jay64]

I've got a bunch of motors, haven't decided what to build for this race. I have a few 9 continents hub, both front and rear. I have a turnigy 80-100 that I have never used, I also have a handful of the baby collosus motors. Heck if it comes to it, I even have a couple of Mars motors and 2 AgniMotors. :lol: :lol: but, like I said I'm still deciding what I'm going to go with. I have a few ideas of what I'd like to do, it is just a matter of what I have time to build.
As far as the competetive question......both. :lol: If I can just ride, I'll be happy. I tend to try and push whatever I'm on to go as fast as I can make it go if it is a race environment, but if it is just a fun rally, then I'm fine riding around w everyone. Sure, I like to win, but if I have something that will run around w everyone, then that would be a hoot too.

 

[SoSauty]

Wow, such possibilities. Would love to see double C9s. Dogmanz runs 40ish/mph @3+K with a modded front C9 drive(big motor wires and shell drilled cooling). Seems he ran 20S/74V(lipo rating) to get the rpm/speed up. PaulD won at Tucson w/ stock T80-100 running 18s lipo and <5K. AJ and Thud know everything 'bout that big Turnigy your have. Heard speculation you could run 5-6+K (continous power rating for racing) if you got a finely built Lyen controller to mate w/ your motor and installed hall sensors.

 

[Thud]

I have a plan to attend this race....
Having learned a lot from my failings in Touson...& will also have 2 races completed before this event to prove the equipment....bring your A game gentlmen & let the good times roll!

 

[liveforphysics]

I have a plan to attend this race....
Having learned a lot from my failings in Touson...& will also have 2 races completed before this event to prove the equipment....bring your A game gentlmen & let the good times roll!

Thud- If it's cost as the obstacle, I bet we could throw together a little collection. I would chip-in at least.

To make things as easy as possible for you guys, I've got plenty of high power rapid charging systems I can bring for the folks who are trying to minimize what they will need to travel with. I have 3 separate charger setups that can do over 5kw charging that folks are welcome to use.

 

[Thud]

Wow, thats too generous Luke,
& yes its allways the cost. I will take all the help anyone will give. I will book the flight tonight & will be totaly imposing on e-tard for the rest. Instead of paying off debt with the trany run, I am blowing it on e-bike hobby LOL!

Round trip air fair is $400.00 I am waffling on shipping the bully out for the race...& sending it back peice meal asI have room in the budget....or just packing motors,controllers & brakes in my ludgage & chopping together a build at etards. then letting e-tard do with it what he will whence i am done with it. (still have to ground ship the Lipo)

A thousound thanks & if any one has a cause to promote....space is allways available on the bike LOL.

 

[Jay64]

Thud, I don't know if it will help you, but I can bring the bike to Cali of u get it to Georgia. And then I can bring it back to the east coast after a couple of weeks when I come back. But that would still probably mean shipping it up to you, but maybe that might make the shipping cheaper??? I don't know, but just throwing it out there.

 

[MotorBicycleRacing]

Here is a great video of SuperMotards racing at Grange Track
riding on the asphalt and the off road dirt section.

http://youtu.be/gNxPBmJJPIc

I don't know if we are going to ride on the dirt section or not?

That is one fun winding strip of blacktop!
Only 51 days until we all get to ride it!

[youtube]gNxPBmJJPIc[/youtube]

 

[MotorBicycleRacing]

Required Safety Equipment;

DOT rated helmet or better like Snell. No bicycle helmets. No novelty motorcycle helmets without DOT certification.
Eye protection.
Gloves. No bare hands.
Knee and elbow pads or full leathers or Motocross gear
Long pants, no shorts or exposed skin this time please.
Ankle covering footwear or boots.

A DOT helmet is required by California law to ride a gas powered
motorized bicycle or Moped on the streets.

Fire extinguisher.

The pit road speed limit is 5 mph and will be enforced this race.

 

[MotorBicycleRacing]

Any of you ebike guys want to comment on tires at the stink bike forum?

http://motorbicycling.com/f35/so-cal-race-oct-22-grange-32562-9.html

By the way I said cost was one of the reasons to use the Pirelli ML 75 tires.
.

 

[Farfle]

Dirt track sections! pleeease!